News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by emp_zealoth on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:29AM (#10224989)
Wow. Rant incoming. Im just aghast how shitty your country is. I can understand living in fear of mortgages and the like, jak with at will nonsense and the like (gags)

But your employer having a gun to your beloved's head - that what it basically is - is just rotten.

I genuinely wish that any libertarians here (in Poland) move to USA or, Friedmans beloved, Chile. I hope they get to experience shit like that. I guess im a filthy little commie for expexcting to be able to live my life without shit like that /s

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by drstewart on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @06:01AM (#10225586)
>I genuinely wish that any libertarians here (in Poland) move to USA

Lots of Poles, libertarian or not, do that for the massive quality of life increase.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by drzaiusapelord on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:51AM (#10226554)
>Im just aghast how shitty your country is.

We have a lot of social programs for the poor, especially in regards to health. No its not Euro-style universal healthcare, but this idea that they'll starve in the streets if they lose their jobs is ridiculous. That's on top of COBRA, which allow you to stay on your employers plan for a bit while you work out a new provider. Or subsidized ACA exchange insurance. We are down to 11% uninsured right now. In the 90s we were getting close to hitting 20%.

There's a lag period before you can apply for and get benefits, but that's what unemployment insurance (which is mandatory) is for and you know... your own savings. You are putting away savings right?

The real problem here is that I find most middle-class people have no idea how welfare works. None. They've never had to apply for these things. They just think they're for "welfare queens" and "drug addicts." They don't realize that these programs are pretty much everywhere in the USA. For example, food stamps are mostly used by white people. So these people have unrealistic ideas of what loss of income means. They think they're going to debtors prison and being forced to die in their basements from lack of healthcare. Europeans like yourself buy into this nonsense because they have an anti-US bone to pick. The reality is that you're both being incredibly disingenuous. Perhaps you should do some basic research before making these shoddy generalizations?

Its also worth mentioning that every HP product we use is fairly terrible. All of our servers, printers, etc. A lot of sysadmins I've talked to are either considering moving to Dell or already have moved. These jobs are going to migrate to Dell or elsewhere I imagine. That's how competition works. Yeah, its ugly, but HP has not been competitive for some time in many areas. You can't expect a lifetime of labor without shake-ups, especially in the volatile tech sector.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by Domenic_S on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:23PM (#10228254)
> The real problem here is that I find most middle-class people have no idea how welfare works.

I got a taste when I applied for PFL in California when we had a baby. The scale of people the State serves is insane, and navigating the system could be a full-time job in itself.

(PFL is California's supplemental program that pays some fraction of your salary for family leave - in my case new child bonding)

I took 3 weeks leave, and on the last Friday got a phone call from the PFL office: "We have a question about your PFL application, and if you don't return our call today we will deny your claim". I call, and after battling the phone tree got, "Our system is over capacity. Please try again later click". I finally got through at the end of the day via email.

I finally got paid the first day I returned from leave (!). Luckily for me I wasn't depending on the money or else my kids would have been eating rice. What a nightmare. I don't envy anyone who has to use social services.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by cookiecaper on Thursday September 17, 2015 @11:44AM (#10233971)
>For example, food stamps are mostly used by white people.

Not how ratios work. In absolute terms, there are more white people who use food stamps than non-white people because 3/4s of the country's population is white. Per capita, many more non-white people are on food stamps than white people.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by MC7447a on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @03:32AM (#10225156)
You don't have to pay your mortgage if you get laid off in Poland?
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by JupiterMoon on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @08:35AM (#10226066)
In some European countries (probably not Poland) the unemployment you get for about 2 years if you lose your job is sufficient to cover a mortgage. The philosophy is that it is cheaper for the state to help people stay in their existing home than to have them lose it and potentially have to house them and them never go back to being a net contributor.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by cookiecaper on Thursday September 17, 2015 @11:34AM (#10233912)
All states in the United States have unemployment assistance programs, as well as programs like Medicaid to provide health care to the poor. OP's dad is nearing retirement age and can probably take advantage of some state-provided retirement benefits, like social security and/or Medicare.

While things may be less extreme here than in Europe, you aren't just left to die if you become unemployed. Government-provided insurance that you have to be either poor or old enough to get is actually much better than a lot of the private insurance plans that are the only option for the middle class.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by Ensorceled on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @07:26AM (#10225835)
They said they understood the mortgage part, it's the health care they don't understand.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dovereconomics on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @07:20AM (#10225819)
But... ,in a libertarian country, HP wouldn't exist in the first place.

Crony capitalism still is not capitalism.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:32AM (#10226863)
The worst, unchecked, crony cap Papuan is exactly the system for which the name "capitalism" was coined, and crony capitalism had been part of what the term had referred to -- and an element of all real-world systems with the name -- since the real-world nineteenth century system that features it was named "capitalism" by its critics.

Cronyism is central to capitalism, and you can't have one without the other.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dovereconomics on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:22PM (#10227740)
Cronyism, referring to a system where incompetent agents are given special favors, doesn't survive in the free market - merciless competition destroys any underperfoming organization.

Cronyism only exists when competition doesn't work by means of a government. Get some politicians, create regulations, build a monopoly. No matter how uncompetitive it is, you're still a billionaire.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:36PM (#10227854)
> Cronyism, referring to a system where incompetent agents are given special favors, doesn't survive in the free market

The "free market" in which that is a defensible claim is a counterfactual construct that is sometimes useful as a simplified analytic model, but fundamentally incompatible with the behavior of real human beings and conditions in the real world.

> merciless competition destroys any underperfoming organization.

In real unregulated markets, that may happen initially, and the most successful parties in that situation mercilessly move to lock-in advantages against future competitors by use their economic power they have as a result of that success to monopolize key inputs, preventing competition.

> Cronyism only exists when competition doesn't work by means of a government

Yes, and a particular, common, real-world version of cronyism by which government structures the economic regime to favor the interest of the capital-holding class was identified by its critics in the 19th Century, and given the name "capitalism".

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dovereconomics on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:53PM (#10228473)
>government structures the economic regime to favor the interest

That's it. If there's central planning(no matter to whom) it's socialism. And, regarding 'lock-in advantages', without a government-backed credit expansion, it'd be really difficult for companies to get as much market cap.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:41PM (#10228803)
> If there's central planning(no matter to whom) it's socialism.

No, the dominant system of the developed world in the 19th Century that socialists reacted against and coined the word "capitalism" to describe isn't socialism.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by pdeuchler on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:05PM (#10228108)
By this argument we should just accept that "communism" involves the widespread murder of political enemies, as that has always happened in "communist" countries.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by s73v3r on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:34PM (#10228760)
Why wouldn't they? Crony capitalism is still capitalism. It's a company using it's capital to gain an advantage.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by stefantalpalaru on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @11:51AM (#10227499)
> Crony capitalism still is not capitalism.

This reminds me of some people who pointed out that communism was never implemented and all the totalitarian regimes were still in the socialism phase. A phase which was obviously never going to be replaced with the communist utopia.

This is just a delay tactic. We all know what we talk about when we say "communism" and it's the same for "capitalism" - we mean the real-world, flawed implementation.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dovereconomics on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:13PM (#10227652)
Not really.

Anyone with a background on classical economics realizes the U.S is much closer to socialism than capitalism. The existence of 'prices' and greed doesn't imply it's capitalism.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:51PM (#10228872)
> Anyone with a background on classical economics realizes the U.S is much closer to socialism than capitalism.

Anyone should recognize that the dominant system of the modern developed world is a hybrid retaining largely the capitalist structures and property regime, but adopting many strategies with origins in socialism (including advocated in the communism of Marx and Engels) for mitigating some of the effects for which 19th Century socialists criticized the dominant system of the developed world at that time, for which they coined the term "capitalism".

Its probably not particularly productive to argue about whether this synthesis is "closer" to socialism or capitalism.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by pdeuchler on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:00PM (#10228057)
Exactly. The US (and to a greater extent, the West) never really grew out of mercantilism... the "capitalism" only shines through when it's convenient propaganda (spreading democracy and capitalism, one bomb at a time!) or when there's vast amounts of money to be made in ethically dubious circumstances (like doing business with Nazis) and some sort of justification is needed.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by drabiega on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:24PM (#10228678)
I have such a background and I can't think of any metric in which the US is closer to socialism than capitalism.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by webXL on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:01PM (#10230970)
Is Sweden a socialist country, according to your metrics? Government spending makes up just over half of their economy. We're somewhere between 35-38%, federal, state & local. I'll leave it at that.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by Apocryphon on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:47PM (#10227949)
So neoliberalism is socialism?
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by fwn on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:10PM (#10228158)
If you are implying the US is somehow close to what neoliberal thinkers would propose, that couldn't be more wrong.

Neoliberalism doesn't mean watered down free-market liberalism. The term describes a certain movement in (classical) liberal thought which wanted to seperate itself from former thinkers primarily based on the time they where living in.

While those thinkers have little in common, they genuinely disliked a productive state (as in the production of goods or the delivery of a service), cartels, interventions in the price mechanism etc.

All of that is far away from what the US or European countries are currently doing.

At least in Europe it's also used as a meaningless buzzword to scare people who think that the prefix "neo" means evil.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by ido on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:13AM (#10226716)
I am wondering about using Chile as another example - as far as I know they have public healthcare?
[dead]
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by Lawtonfogle on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:07AM (#10226227)
And the socialists are why we aren't living with a fully free market where every child has a price tag attached. (I mean, if we are going to go 110% overboard with our statements.)
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by forgotpasswd3x on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @11:40AM (#10227415)
Bringing out the "you're too young to understand" argument. Awesome.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dang on Thursday September 17, 2015 @12:59AM (#10231662)
Personal attacks are not welcome on HN, nor ideological ranting. Please don't do these things here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by Apocryphon on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:46PM (#10227940)
Actually, Catholics and trade unionists are the reason why Poland is no longer communist.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by wyclif on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @03:46AM (#10225200)
Chile is a far stronger economy than Poland will probably ever be.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by emj on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @04:23AM (#10225335)
Is this a joke? Poland has a larger population than chile, better per capita GDP, and is a power house in the middle of Europe. They do still have some internal problems but this is nothing compared to the (low key) international conflicts Chile still is involved in.

I love both countries though.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by drzaiusapelord on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:09AM (#10226682)
GDP per capita is higher in Chile and has 2-3x the growth Poland has.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by wyclif on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @06:52AM (#10225732)
Why would you think that's a joke? GDP is only one metric, you know. And Poland's GDP Growth Rate is 1.67% to Chile's 4.07%. Chile also has a lower unemployment rate, and ranks higher than Poland on economic freedom.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by emp_zealoth on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:20AM (#10226770)
And how is GDP growth more relevant than GDP itself? And what about humongous, growing income inequality? Chile doesn't really rank that well, does it? 140th out of 159 ranked countries http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gini+index+chile
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by panzagl on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:36AM (#10226894)
So why are there so many Polish immigrants and so few Chilean ones?