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Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by jfoutz on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:59AM (#10224774)
Your dad needs to think about the next best 5 guys, and how to pick them up for cheap when the layoffs happen. At his age striking out on his own will seem absolutely terrifying.

Work on him for a few months. He must have built up some serious contacts over the years. His pitch is straightforward. HP can't actually support their products anymore, they don't have the staff. He knows the hardware inside and out. Sell support contracts. Snipe the best after the layoffs.

You don't look for a job when you need one. this rumor is going to terrify customers. Since he has good personal relationships with those fortune 1000, he needs to monetize that. He must have some idea of what HP charges for his time. He can send the new guys, and come in to rescue at the end.

I know this sounds crazy. Think really hard about it though. There isn't anyplace that will hire him at 100k. He needs to set up his own shop. Think of it this way, 0.05 < P(new_biz_fail) < 0.1. What is the chance of him getting a good new job in 6 months? i'd guess less than 10%. With your mom, he needs to bring in serious cash. He's in a position to do that. If he picks good helpers, it won't consume his life, anymore than the current job. He really only needs 1 contract, and can build from there.

It sounds super scary. Hell, it is super scary. If he needs stability for the next 15 years or so, this is a really good way to do it. Really, in his position, as good as he is, it's less scary than going and looking for work.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by joshmn on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:04AM (#10224787)
This sounds like a great idea, but I don't know if he's such an entrepreneur or risk-taker. Some people are, some people aren't. It's a natural thing.

I'm not sure of the papers he's signed (non-competes...), or the contracts that HP has with their customers (there must be some), but... he could definitely "get the band together" and pull off such a feat. Again, I think this goes back to the contracts he had.

He's one of 4 remaining from the "blue days" (time with Digital); I think they'd be able to pull it off if they did go this route. They're all pretty awesome.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by jasode on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @08:42AM (#10226096)
>He's one of 4 remaining from the "blue days" (time with Digital); I think they'd be able to pull it off if they did go this route. They're all pretty awesome.

From personal experience, I want to add some long-term expectations about commanding premium consulting rates -- especially as it relates to vendor-proprietary knowledge.

I used to work for an enterprise software firm and was on their "crisis firefighting team". I'd travel to customer sites at less than 24 hours notice and fix their worst problems. These were the problems that were escalated to the CEO.

When I left the company and struck out on my own as a freelance "subject matter expert", I was able to command $300k a year for a few years. My background and rate was easy to sell: I was trained directly by the people who wrote the software.

The thing is that I always knew I was living on borrowed time because that high income was based on my previous association of being in the "inner circle" of how the software works. I had to diversify my skills away from that software because with each year that passed by, I became more of an "outsider" just like everyone else.

To relate to your dad's situation ... yes he's very good at what he does, but some of that value may also be his inside feed of information from HP. After he's separated from HP, as each new generation of server & printer hardware is released, his "aura" of HP knowledge can become outdated and less relevant value for customers. In other words, he needs to charge whatever premium rate he can, save as much as he can, all with an eye towards diversifying his income. Diversity could mean new tech skills such as learning AWS architecture or buying real estate to get income from rental properties.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by paulmd on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @04:19PM (#10229557)
For people who work with legacy technologies, it can actually be the reverse situation. Yeah, your knowledge of The Latest Hipster Web Framework becomes less valuable year on year, but the situation is a little different for senior personnel running Fortune 50-level ops on legacy technologies. They aren't exactly churning OpenVMS systems architects out of coding boot camps. It's a lot the same situation as COBOL programmers are in - they're not something you need a million of, the work may not be 100% stable, but when you do need them they're fixing mission-critical systems that have millions/billions of dollars of business riding on them and the rates are astronomical.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by chx on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:35PM (#10231270)
Uh, this sort of hardware doesn't get upgraded in a year or two. Or ever. One word: COBOL.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by m12k on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @03:35AM (#10225168)
My dad was working as a consultant (environmental consultant, basically handling the creation of reports needed for a company's legal compliance with emissions standards, etc.) for an industrial trade org. They had a rule not to compete with member companies, so when a consultancy joined the org, they shut down his division, even though the new member only offered services that were tangentially related. He ended up working for himself (one man shop) for the last 13 years of his career before retiring, doing exactly the same thing he'd always done. He's not a sales person by any means, and striking out on his own definitely seemed outside his comfort zone at first. But he was able to base his business on the relationships with customers that he'd already established, and since he's got such a specialized skill set and works so diligently, his customers kept coming back and recommended him to others. So I just wanted to give an example that this sort of thing is possible (assuming there's no non-compete clause to undermine the whole thing - in my dad's case he did it with the blessing of his former employer - sometimes they'd even send him leads when they had to turn away a customer)
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by jfoutz on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:11AM (#10224805)
The vast majority of people who are great aren't great because they want to be. they don't have a choice, they need to be. He's got some time, he can figure it out. Maybe partner with those friends. Sharing the load is incredibly motivating.

At least get him to take a long look at those contracts. Heck, he might be released from them on severance.

Talk to him about it. No matter what happens, it's going to be a rough time for him. If he feels safer going and looking for work, good for him, there's no judgement. But you make it sound like he really needs to take care of his family. Just keep this option in mind. Time is on your side, for now.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by joshmn on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:17AM (#10224815)
Thanks, I'll be sure to echo this to him.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by iheartmemcache on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:45AM (#10225026)
Those contacts are worth a ridiculous amount of money. Niche consulting for the enterprise can yield literally millions of dollars/a year in support for a client like UPS. An Alpha setup.. I'm guessing OpenVMS? Mission critical to their business. Whatever support contract they're paying HP, he can join any big-name tech consulting firm, play golf with the CIO or purchasing authority in charge of maintenance/support and just _happen to mention_ he moved firms.

He doesn't have to go on-site to UPS to bring that business over to another firm, and when you build up _30 years_ of trust, that Rolodex and trust is worth 50x the best technical engineers ability (in terms of generating billables). He's in a great position. Senior Partners at McKinsey aren't paid millions because of their ability to put together a nice deck. They're paid that way because they have 20 years of billables and reliable after-work. If he's laid off and not picked up in 2 weeks, tell him to e-mail me.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by meatysnapper on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:36PM (#10227852)
Word. Your dad needs to gather up all his contacts, put them in a spreadsheet and figure out who he's got. Then, figure out which of his customers will get screwed in this. Then, collect his team. Then, figure out the noncompete. It's very doable, but very scary.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by mrcsparker on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @08:55AM (#10226168)
If this is anything like the last set of layoffs and sell offs the the early 2000s, there will be a lot of smaller companies starting up that will handle the business that HP will start to lose.

I worked at a large company that used HP hardware with large, multi-million dollar contracts and a lot of our business went out to these smaller companies. The level of service that your father can provide is important to large enterprises. If your father doesn't want to start his own company, someone else will. He should start talking to his colleagues and his boss - maybe someone is already thinking of starting something.

These sorts of layoffs can create opportunity for people like your dad. HP can't just lay off that many people without hurting parts of their service line.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by at-fates-hands on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:46AM (#10226512)
>> I'm not sure of the papers he's signed (non-competes...), or the contracts that HP has with their customers

You should do a few things.

1 - Contact an employment attorney and see if they can determine if he signed a non-compete. If it helps, I was involved in two scenarios (in Minnesota) where I signed a non-compete and went to work for a competitor. Both times, the judge threw out the case saying the company couldn't keep me from being gainfully employed if I wasn't going to disrupt their business. It was a hard sell since I was going to a startup and they were a fortune 1000 company.

2 - Tell your Dad to start planning as if he will get laid off. Start putting together a plan for his own business. Contacts, companies, phone numbers, information on their equipment - anything he can get his hands on. In short, start stockpiling information now. The more he has, the sooner he gets off the ground. Also, start talking to people to see how motivated they would be to start something on their own.

4 - Tell him to dust off his resume and start sending it out to recruiters. I know for a fact there's a ton of HP hardware vendors or re-sellers that could use his experience.

In short, start planning for the worst. Hopefully he gets through this, but he should assume the worst and hope for the best. If he does get laid off, he's already ready to hit the ground running instead of wallowing about being a company for so long. Trust me, companies would die to have a guy with his contacts and experience. This is by no means a dead end or career ending by any stretch.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by shaung on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:52AM (#10226561)
An additional idea to supplement income while building his business or looking for a new job would be to join an expert network. Consultants/investors can pay upwards of $1000/hour to speak with industry veterans across all different functions.

Some examples: GLG (Gerson Lehrman Group) Cognolink AlphaSights

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by mikekij on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:48PM (#10227955)
Most states are "right to work" states, which means that it is difficult (or impossible) for an employer to enforce a non-compete if they lay you off. Unless he signs something to the contrary while taking severance. It'd be worth the $150 half-hour lawyer fee to get an official legal opinion on this.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by jonah on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:31AM (#10224995)
And whatever tasks he doesn't like, accounting, bookkeeping, etcetera. He can hire someone full time or even just part time to handle for him. That way he can focus on the things he does well, selling and doing the work.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by rayiner on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @07:25AM (#10225833)
As long as he can get the legal stuff square (non-competes, etc) it's not that risky. You're not trying to start a unicorn tech company, just convert a few contacts into customers to replace your old income and hopefully make more than you did before. My dad did this last year, at 60, and it's been going pretty good. Having a big network is a huge plus.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dottedmag on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:37AM (#10226429)
When CFEngine got bust (well, the company was put on life-support) all the guys who know the technology (even if it was just a 1-2 years of experience) resigned and turned into contractors with a semi-permanent contracts and 2-3x income boost.

It's not hard.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by beachstartup on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:17AM (#10226293)
he can do it with your help and guidance. the midwest and south are littered with many small tech consulting outfits like this, we work with several. they all bill slightly under coastal market (we're based in california) but high for the midwest ($~150-200/hr). we use them for things like tech-focused CPA work and commercial software support i.e. oracle, sql server etc.

i personally bootstrapped my startup with 0 outside funding by doing commercial i.e. "enterprise" software consulting on a platform i had experience in from two jobs ago, with my partner, for 2 years. we each booked about $250k of revenue a year for 2-3 years before the work dried up after several buyouts etc. by then our 'real' business was self sustaining.

it's time-capped, and you'll have to hustle for the work, but you can bill an outrageous sum of money that will pad their retirement and help secure their future in an otherwise shit situation.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by stephen_cagle on Thursday September 17, 2015 @01:47AM (#10231748)
You should 100% check with a lawyer about those supposed non-compete things you sign. In many states, as I understand, they aren't even worth the paper they are printed upon.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by paulmd on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:56PM (#10228491)
Small world - my dad's another one of those 4 HP-ES folks left from the blue days. I agree with the advice here and I've forwarded him a link to the comments (hi dad!).
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by VonGuard on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:19PM (#10228214)
This.

He has the contacts. Make sure he takes his rolodex when he leaves. Day one after layoffs, call those clients up and say "Hey, they laid me off. Want me on contract?"

Even if he only gets 3 or 4 clients from this, the money they paid HP now goes to him, and it will be a LOT more than his salary. His client contacts are his core IP. Use em.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by ojbyrne on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @11:02AM (#10227109)
This is very similar to what my father did around the same age, though in a different field (construction). The company he was VP at went into Chapter 11, he took a few of the people who worked for him, started a small company, and took over all their contracts (this was done amicably, they even rented equipment from the company). He did very well.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by kazagistar on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @02:53AM (#10225048)
There is probably a non compete exactly for this situation.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by weavie on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @03:12AM (#10225108)
Maybe, but if you get laid off all bets are off really. Maybe it is different in the US, but in the UK I've known of cases of people who have been laid off who then went on the form competing companies. There may have been some law suits flying around behind the scenes, but in the end these companies settled and were successful.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by SmellyGeekBoy on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @07:45AM (#10225888)
My understanding is that being laid off is a "termination of contract" - therefore making any noncompete terms in said contract null and void.

Not to mention that "restrictive covenants" such as a noncompete won't fly in this sort of situation. Then again, my experience is with UK employment law so please don't take this as legal advice.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by BorgHunter on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @08:44AM (#10226104)
This depends on one's jurisdiction, in the U.S. at least. For example, in Illinois, non-competes are generally enforceable.[0] In California, they are generally not.[1]

[0] http://www.isba.org/ibj/2012/01/lawpulse/employmentcovenants...

[1] http://www.cnet.com/news/calif-supreme-court-finds-noncompet...

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by spacecowboy_lon on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:01AM (#10226197)
Even when you have been made redundant?
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by BorgHunter on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:19AM (#10226304)
It seems to depend on the totality of the circumstances, in Illinois, so I'd imagine the nonvoluntary nature of the termination would be taken into account. But there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. If it ended up in litigation it could get messy; there isn't a terribly large amount of guidance from the courts.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by mring33621 on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @11:05AM (#10227130)
Regardless of the possibility of litigation, the logic is very simple: 1) a non-compete indicates that the employee has some skillset or knowledge that the business does not want to lose to a competitor; 2) the involuntary release of that same employee indicates that (1) is no longer true, unless the released employee is fairly compensated for the non-compete period.

I would feel pretty comfortable presenting this argument to a judge, even without a lawyer present.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by benaiah on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @11:39AM (#10227406)
> I would feel pretty comfortable presenting this argument to a judge, even without a lawyer present.

I'm gonna go ahead and ignore any legal advice you give, then. That's completely bonkers.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by georgemcbay on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @03:45PM (#10229287)
Personally I'd still talk to a lawyer (easy for me to say as I have a friend who is a business lawyer), but I wouldn't go so far as to say not having a lawyer here would be "bonkers"

The argument is pretty clear and rational; unless the judge was in the pocket of the company on the other end of the suit (in which case you're fucked anyway), I think representing one's self would be pretty straightforward in this case.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by benaiah on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @06:07PM (#10230254)
Representing yourself is never, ever, ever a good idea. Not even if you are a lawyer (and if you were, you'd know this). "The man who represents himself has a fool for a client" is one of the few legal truisms that is actually true.

That aside, your argument may be "pretty clear and rational," but that does not mean it follows the law (which is rarely either of those things). Without a lawyer you have no way of knowing (self-studying law is a great way to royally fuck yourself if you ever try to apply it in a real scenario).

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by ebiester on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @04:13PM (#10229515)
http://www.wbjournal.com/article/20120903/PRINTEDITION/30830... says otherwise, as do other resources I've checked.

Now, you usually have to be a bigger fish to get a non-compete enforced, or you have to threaten business. Most places that have a contract with HP will still have a contract even after hiring an expert. Fortune 1000 companies have better lawyers that know how to craft jobs to avoid exactly these scenarios.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by monksy on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:24PM (#10228262)
Yep. Even then. I've had a company that put one on my employment, do a mass layoff and even put a reminder that I signed the document in the termination letter.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by klean92 on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @11:22AM (#10227263)
I see no chance in the world that a bleeding company busy laying off and restructuring will sue a laid off worker because he's trying to make 50-100K a year. Why would they pay more expensive lawyers to do that?

If the lay him off, it really meams they don't want that kind of business anyway. Companies are driven by business people, not lawyers.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by panzagl on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:29AM (#10226844)
They still have to sue you to enforce it- better to have a 6 figure income and a non-compete lawsuit winding its way through court than to be handing out carts at Walmart.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dangerboysteve on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @04:03PM (#10229437)
One thing to remember about hardware support is access to replacement hardware in a timely manner. With large support contracts server parts need to be available sometimes within hours of a failure. HP may not play ball. Something to think about.

I also wanted to say people like your Dad are worth their weight in gold. Good hardware tech's are hard to find.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by nickthemagicman on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @04:37AM (#10225375)
It bothers me when people suggest unrealistic possibilities to people being layed off like starting their own businesses.

There's 10% unemployment. Is that really a legit solution?

Capitalism is built on the idea of everyone 'working' and 'having a job' and theres lots of people like his dad who really want work, and are loyal and hardworking.

But there's not enough jobs to go around and the amount keeps decreasing due to automation.

So what happens next?

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by Nilef on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @05:13AM (#10225476)
It's obviously not a legit solution for all 10% of people out there but this is kind of an exceptional case - The guy is literally the best person in the world to fill the gap in the market which is about to be created by the lay-offs, so why is starting his own business unrealistic? Especially given that he's really just trying to do the exact same work without HP as a middle-man
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by coldtea on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @09:34AM (#10226410)
>Capitalism is built on the idea of everyone 'working' and 'having a job'

I think it was just built on the idea of selling stuff to people and making as many things as you can sellable commodities.

Whether those working are many or few doesn't matter, as long as you get to sell to enough people to make your profit.

In the days of advanced British etc capitalism, the homeless/jobless/disenfranchised living in London etc, were very many.

That you need to pay more people to be able to build a wide market is more of a 20th century addition (Ford and his workers, the New Deal, etc).

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by nickthemagicman on Thursday September 17, 2015 @04:48AM (#10232260)
So whats the solution to the multitudes of people in need of work?
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by sbov on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:52PM (#10227988)
> Capitalism is built on the idea of everyone 'working' and 'having a job'

Capitalism wouldn't work if everyone who wants a job has one, so I really doubt that. Employees could just demand ever increasing salaries until all profit is gobbled up, and there's nothing the business can do about it because they can't replace them since everyone who wants a job has one.

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by mdpopescu on Thursday September 17, 2015 @12:13PM (#10234201)
But everyone who wants a job already has one, by definition. (Think about it.)
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by adventured on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @05:13AM (#10225475)
Not enough jobs to go around? I disagree.

There are ~5.8 million job openings as of the end of July. The highest level maybe in 15 years [1]. The unemployed worker per job opening ratio is also at the lowest in 15 years [2]. The U6 unemployment rate for people that have some college is 5.x%; the unemployment rate for people with a four year degree is 2.x%. There have been eight million full-time jobs added in just four years.

The challenge, as always, is finding the job you want, at the salary you'll accept, matching skills you possess. I'd argue there are plenty of job openings in technology and sales.

[1] http://i.imgur.com/imAwheB.png

[2] http://i.imgur.com/2jQ4uaR.png

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by ZanyProgrammer on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @10:45AM (#10226964)
Maybe if you are under 30, look like Mark Zuckerberg, and have a CS degree from Carnegie Mellon or Stanford.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by muraiki on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @01:03PM (#10228087)
Can you give sources for your stats? For instance, when I looked at the BLS for the unemployment rate for people with four year degrees this morning, it did not appear to be U6 (which was listed as a separate metric) and furthermore only accounted for people who were at least 25 years old.

I think that it's reasonable to assume that the average college grad is < 25, so that statistic doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of the recently graduated.

If you take people with high school or higher education who are > 25, there are 5.5 million unemployed. I'd be curious to know what that number changes to if you lower the age to 22 or so.

See http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by sixbrx on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @07:25AM (#10225831)
I remember reading somewhere that it's a bit different for the over 50 crowd, even for PhD's.
Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by steego on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @11:10AM (#10227175)
There is definitely a higher expectation for someone over 50 and with someone with an advanced degree. It's both unfair and understandable because the subconscious implication is experience and advanced degrees cost more, so they will be subject to intense scrutiny to make sure paying someone a premium is worth it. Basically, a guy over 50 with a PhD better be a convincing Donald Knuth or good management material.

Also, I think team leads tell themselves they can mold young developers in their image. Not only are you getting a developer at a discount, you're getting a potential clone. What's not to love?

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:55PM (#10228018)
> Capitalism is built on the idea of everyone 'working' and 'having a job'

Capitalism is structured so that everyone without substantial capital holdings needs a job. OTOH, its not built on everyone working and having a job, in fact, the desperation that comes with people not having jobs and people currently working being at risk of not having jobs -- and the effect that has on the wages and conditions those employed are willing to accept -- is important to capitalism (though its one of the effects modern mixed economies have attempted to mitigate in moving away from pure capitalism.)

Re:HP to cut 25-30k jobs by dbbolton on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @03:31PM (#10229188)
What you described sounds an awful lot like the Michael Scott Paper Company, which, ironically, was quite a success (all things considered).