News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by ComputerGuru on Sunday July 26, 2015 @04:10AM (#9950499)
The R9 Fury is for me and anyone else who's main machine is a virtual one. nVidia has locked out its consumer graphics cards from being passed-through to a virtual machine unless you buy their multi-thousand-dollar workstation graphics cards, while AMD lets you pass your graphics cards through to your VMs, no problem.

Edit: For clarification, if you want to use a virtual machine directly (i.e. not in a window or a virtual terminal on another machine running a virtual machine browser), keyboard and mousing directly into the VM and having the VM direct its output directly to a video card/monitor, you must "pass through" the video card so the VM "owns" it exclusively and the host machine does not. Regardless of whether you want gaming-level graphics or just basic VGA output, you need to give it an actual, real graphics card (there are exceptions with new cards by nVidia that understand VMs and let you "create" a graphics card out of a subsection of a more powerful card, but at prohibitive prices). AMD's entire graphics card lineup, from their $20 to their $700 GPUs will let you do this. nVidia's cards detect they're being passed-through to a VM and won't install the drivers, unless you perform a (risky) hardware hack or use their professional graphics cards that a) aren't designed nor optimized for consumer graphics card use, and b) cost at least an order of magnitude more than their regular graphics cards.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by Fr0styMatt8 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @04:55AM (#9950570)
I really wish AMD would promote this type of thing more heavily in general (having advanced features that Nvidia restricts to their high-cost cards). I seem to remember a similar thing with AMD being fantastic for Bitcoin mining and from memory it's because Nvidia gimped certain features that were on the cards, while AMD did not.

(on that note, I'm constantly annoyed that despite it being Nvidia specific, everyone supports CUDA for everything cool).

I understand companies have to do this to segregate their products and that it's impractical to have separate fab lines for a chip family for this kind of difference. It's still something I think AMD has a competitive advantage on though and they really need to push that alone (unless they just don't really want to - to sell their own high-end professional cards).

A worse example of this is Nvidia cards not running in systems that have AMD graphics cards in them. Which means, for example, you can't buy a low/mid-range Nvidia card to sit in your system as a dedicated PhysX/CUDA card. I'd consider such a setup for my system and I imagine there's probably others like me out there.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by noipv4 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @07:30AM (#9950764)
Cryptocurrency mining demand for Radeon GPUs between 2010 - 2012 had improved AMD's revenue stream quite a bit back then. http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/02/14/why-the-par...

AMD GPU mining rigs and some other hardware pics. http://www.buttcoinfoundation.org/mining-rig-megapost#more-3...

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by woadwarrior01 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @06:19AM (#9950671)
The bitcoin mining edge that AMD cards had over Nvidia cards was came down to the AMD ISA having a single cycle hardware rotate instruction, which the NVIDIA cards lacked. Also the AMD philosophy of many dumb cores vs the Nvidia's philosophy of fewer smarter cores made a significant difference.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by optimiz3 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @04:07PM (#9952050)
Not true - AMD GCN also has bitselect, which does

dst = (A & B) | (~A & C).

This is equivalent to the SHA-256 Ch "Choose" function.

It also can be used to compose the SHA-256 Maj "Majority" function with an additional XOR.

Additionally, the AMD ISA doesn't have a "rotate" instruction per-se, BFI_INT is "bitfield insert", which can be used to compose arbitrary length rotates, but is not strictly a rotate in and of itself.

AMD ISA also has instructions for computing integer add with carry, which is great for crushing elliptic curves.

NVidia really, really, sucks for integer compute. Friends don't let friends buy NVidia!

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by leoc on Sunday July 26, 2015 @11:09AM (#9951231)
AMD similarly tends to avoid playing bullshit games with things like ECC memory and IOMMUs for consumer-level systems, unlike Intel.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by steckerbrett on Sunday July 26, 2015 @05:43AM (#9950630)
AMD didn't expose the necessary features for good SHA256 performance on their GPUs either, for a while you had to hack their SDK to get them.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by noipv4 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @07:28AM (#9950758)
IIRC, it was the BFI_INT instruction.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by stephengillie on Sunday July 26, 2015 @12:47PM (#9951504)
VGI (VDI for gaming) is the future. We shouldn't have to run on bare metal; we should be able to have a single-VM Host (which theoretically gives full hardware performance) with full hardware pass thru.

This gives all the flexibility of VHDs and virtualization without losing the bare metal advantages. Installing a new OS shouldn't mean the current OS knows about it.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by dogma1138 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @06:59PM (#9952505)
I some how doubt that VDI of any kind is the future in pure home use.

Game streaming is gathering steam now, don't let the OnLive failure fool you, services like Play-Cast have been running in Korea and other Asian companies for some time now.

They've opted to service their streaming through the carrier (cable companies) instead of over the internet which allowed them to pretty much bypass the latency and bandwidth limitations of open internet routing.

EA is now setting up a similar service with Comcast, and many will follow.

NVIDIA has setup it's "gaming cloud" service for it's Tegra based consoles which also seem to work pretty damn well, and localized streaming on NVIDIA cards has been working very well for several years now.

So sorry while VDI/VGI might be a future like any commercial product if it ever materializes it will be abstracted to a point in which you might not call it VDI/VGI, and no you won't get to tinker with it at that point.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by PascLeRasc on Sunday July 26, 2015 @01:46PM (#9951678)
You can get Nvidia and AMD cards to live together in the same machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqkI7bOfRkA
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by Svenstaro on Sunday July 26, 2015 @06:50AM (#9950705)
What you are saying does to appear to be true. See here [0] and [1].

[0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM... [1] http://vfio.blogspot.de/

Apparently it's working very well: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=162768

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by Scramblejams on Sunday July 26, 2015 @09:49AM (#9951031)
As I understand it, Nvidia cards are working right now because recent versions of Qemu removed certain hints that Nvidia drivers were using to detect that they were being run in a VM. I would expect this situation to last only until Nvidia catches on and updates their drivers.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by jzelinskie on Sunday July 26, 2015 @12:42PM (#9951491)
This is true. You can see a list of successful build configurations here[0] and there are plenty of nVidia machines.

[0]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LnGpTrXalwGVNy0PWJDU...

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by Scramblejams on Sunday July 26, 2015 @03:20PM (#9951930)
The length of time this situation has persisted has started to make me wonder. I wonder if for Nvidia it's really about making sure the consumer cards don't work on VMware and the other commercial hypervisors. I'd figure they're protecting their enterprise sales, and my guess is KVM and Xen don't have much enterprise market share, Amazon possibly notwithstanding. So if these cards run on KVM, maybe they don't care.

Still, I personally would be reluctant to drop big money on a consumer Nvidia card thinking that I'd always have the ability to use it under KVM with the latest driver. Nvidia could choose to close this particular hole at any time.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by xienze on Sunday July 26, 2015 @11:17AM (#9951253)
It's definitely true for ESXi.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by XorNot on Sunday July 26, 2015 @07:41AM (#9950783)
This all reminds me that I need to upgrade my motherboard to one which actually supports VT-d. I would really love to boot Windows virtualized on top of my ZFS array, rather then have to cold-boot between OS's.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by jon-wood on Sunday July 26, 2015 @12:01PM (#9951376)
I may be being dense, but why would you want to do this? Are you saying you can get equivalent performance running games under a Windows VM as booting directly? What are the tradeoffs involved?
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by Scramblejams on Sunday July 26, 2015 @01:18PM (#9951592)
Right, that's the promise.

The reason I want to do this is that it's great to throw your money into a single high-spec machine, with fast processors, lots of them, lots of RAM, quiet fans, SSDs, etc., and all your VMs are able to share in the benefits. Plus you have far less hardware to manage.

Also, I find it vastly easier to work with Windows when the backing store is abstracted away into something like LVM where I can easily snapshot and rollback and change it out, store it on a RAID array maybe, and all Windows thinks is it's dealing with a bog standard C drive.

Plus, there's a it's-just-cool factor. Cool to have one awesome machine and three monitors, three keyboards and three mice coming out of it, running different desktop operating systems simultaneously, etc. It's like the mainframe got reinterpreted for modern home use.

The trade off is that often much fiddling is required to make it work. Lots of motherboards have hidden gotchas. Consumer Nvidia cards can be somewhere between a hassle to impossible to get working (with KVM currently an exception to this, though I'm guessing that will turn out to be short-lived). Going with AMD means using their drivers, and on Linux I've always had problems with them. (Though if you don't need high-end 3D on your Linux VM, you could grab a cheap Quadro off eBay and that'll work without difficulty.) And if you have a big hardware problem like a motherboard failure, all your systems are down, though that's true for any kind of VM setup.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by slantyyz on Sunday July 26, 2015 @02:51PM (#9951858)
You can get surprisingly good performance, but sometimes it might be the only way to get a game working on a particular machine.

My Lenovo Y50 has an nVidia GPU with Optimus switching. I have a few games that don't seem to run (Street Fighter X Tekken and Blazblue Continuum Shift), but I can get them to run at 60FPS@1080p on a VM.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by aguki on Sunday July 26, 2015 @05:25PM (#9952245)
> AMD lets you pass your graphics cards through to your VMs, no problem.

This is still based on a 1-1 basis i.e. one GPU passthrough-ed for one VM. Intel's GVT-g, notably XenGT, is IMO more interesting: allowing for one iGPU to be shared with up to 4 VMs (DomU + 3 DomU). This is especially interesting considering Intel's recent inroads into the GPU market with Iris Pro graphics, even bundling them with certain Xeon CPUs.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by dogma1138 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @07:07PM (#9952532)
The XEON CPU's which come with IGP's are the low end CPU's (E3 only) which are re-branded low to mid range desktop processors that were cherry picked to go through XEON's QC process.

Intel doesn't ship high end desktop or server CPU's with IGP's atm, the decision for the XEON's was to provide video transcoding performance, even highest performance Iris chip is still no match for even a mid range GPU from 5 years ago.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by tyfon on Sunday July 26, 2015 @05:18AM (#9950595)
Isn't this restriction only related to using the card both in a multiple VMs and/or the host OS at the same time?

I'm pretty sure you can (if you have a vt-d capable cpu) use the intel IGP for Linux and a nvidia card dedicated for the vm using kvm and vfio-vga drivers.

Unfortunately I can not test this myself as I have a 4770k cpu in my gaming computer and it does not support vt-d.

Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by ComputerGuru on Sunday July 26, 2015 @05:33AM (#9950616)
No, unfortunately I have a useless brick of a GTX 680 Lightning laying on my desk as we speak and an R9 Fury in the mail because that's not the case. I have a separate, basic PCI-E graphics card in the machine as the host GPU, but nothing you do will get an nVidia to pass through. I haven't tried KVM, but I have tried Xen and ESXi, and my reading tells me the same is true for KVM. I'm using an older AMD/ATi HD 7790 in the meantime, it passes through just fine. (Hint/Note: don't pass through the on-board HDMI, that'll give you BSODs and kernel panics to no end.)
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by DCKing on Sunday July 26, 2015 @10:25AM (#9951111)
The article mentions that KVM/Qemu has an option you pass in to work around the GPU detection. Might be worth checking out before you spend that money.
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by baghira on Sunday July 26, 2015 @05:00AM (#9950575)
Someone at Nvidia realized they were doing something non-evil by working on nouveau for tegra, and felt the need to restore balance. I had completely missed this new form of insanity, which generation of cards did it start?
Re:The R9 Fury is AMD’s best card in years, but just who is ... by walterbell on Sunday July 26, 2015 @10:31AM (#9951129)
It has been the case almost as long as PCI passthrough was possible. At one point, higher-end Nvidia GPUs could be passed through. Note that Nvidia has invested into graphics hardware specifically for graphics virtualization, which may explain the artificial feature segmentation, http://www.nvidia.com/object/virtual-gpus.html