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Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by brudgers on Friday July 03, 2015 @09:28AM (#9825438)
No, the way to get Apple's attention over Safari is to pull a page out of Apple's own playbook and that page should be "iOS Strategy for Flash." These days Apple doesn't negotiate with developers. When they have to negotiate it's hardball time. Given that Apple mostly ignores requests from the community of iOS developers, the odds Apple will mea culpa to people even less relevant to its strategy than "the help" are probably zero.

A concerted campaign of browser sniffing and delivering a "We don't serve your kind here" to Mobile Safari users is going to stand a much better chance of Apple's attention than a petition. There's nothing wrong with treating the current situation as just business, but if it really needs to change then that change has to be driven by market changes. A Hallmark Card to Tim Cooke ain't gonna do it.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by mythz on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:05AM (#9825641)
Apple serves its Users not Developers, most of whom appreciate there's only 1 icon they need to click on to access the Internet. Only developers think that having multiple browsers to choose from is a value-add - for most users it just adds unnecessary confusion and complexity.

Killing Flash wasn't a FU for Flash Developers. The only reason why Flash was banned was because it provided a poor experience on a touchscreen device, performed horribly and was a battery drain.

The way to get Apple's attention is for Google or Firefox to develop a superior browser and browsing experience on Android, that users take notice is missing from iOS and is regarded as a USP for Android.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by lambda on Friday July 03, 2015 @12:32PM (#9826514)
> Apple serves its Users not Developers, most of whom appreciate there's only 1 icon they need to click on to access the Internet. Only developers think that having multiple browsers to choose from is a value-add - for most users it just adds unnecessary confusion and complexity.

And Apple's restriction has nothing to do with "only 1 icon"; you can ship competing browsers, and in fact Google ships a "Chrome" on iOS.

The restriction is on the rendering engine.

And note that this restriction does not "serve the users". Users who want a faster, or safer, or more compatible browser with some favorite site of theirs that is pushing the envelope on mobile apps via the web are not able to use a better browsers with a better rendering engine.

Look at how many people run Chrome and Firefox on Windows and OS X, when there is an existing browser available. They are not all "developers"; they are users looking for faster rendering, more compatibility with services that are pushing the envelope of web apps, a safer experience, and the like.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by smashmore on Friday July 03, 2015 @03:05PM (#9827367)
Sadly the Google Chrome on iOS is just a UI over the safari engine. Apple won't let Google port their web engine over to iOS like Google did for OSX. This means that Google Chrome on iOS is stuck with however Apple decides to render the web.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by w-ll on Friday July 03, 2015 @04:06PM (#9827656)
That is exactly what lambda is saying... The choice of browser engine is a facade.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by nileshtrivedi on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:29AM (#9825758)
> Apple serves its Users not Developers, most of whom appreciate there's only 1 icon they need to click on to access the Internet. Only developers think that having multiple browsers to choose from is a value-add - for most users it just adds unnecessary confusion and complexity.

Now replace "Apple" with "Microsoft" in that sentence.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by AllenKids on Friday July 03, 2015 @12:13PM (#9826371)
First, I think EU was wrong on Microsoft's case with IE integration. At the end of the day, a superior Chrome decimated IE's dominance, not EU's fine or mandatory browser chooser.

Second, at the time IE was stale beyond belief and quite obviously inventing compatibility issues just to further its own dominance. Safari team have done none such thing, they just move at their own pace, doing the usual Apple thing, you can complain about their obliviousness but still attribute malice? That's rich. Webkit is opensource FFS.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by zanny on Friday July 03, 2015 @12:46PM (#9826583)
Firefox peaked at like 40% market share back in 2007 / 2008, before Chrome was even a thing.

The case against IE was not that Microsoft bundled it with the OS. Its completely different from what Safari on iOS is. The problem with IE back in 2000 was that Microsoft was:

1. Bundling their browser with their OS. 2. Had 90% of the browser market share as a result of (1). 3. Using that market share to break web standards and implement proprietary IE only features that broke html for everyone else and made it impossible to compete, because if you made a standards compliant web browser in 2002 it would not render pages properly that were designed for IE.

I don't exactly know what made the US fed care so much about preserving web standards over a lot of other violated standards by monopolistic entrenched interests, but their suit was entirely about Microsoft using its position as an overwhelming market dominator of web browsers to usurp web standards.

Apple really can't do that. Safari's market share, even as the only iOS browser engine, is peanuts. All they are doing is making their own platform irrelevant, and since they are not doing the whole "proprietary web that cannot render right in Chrome" thing, they aren't an antitrust case for being incompetent.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by jlarocco on Friday July 03, 2015 @01:36PM (#9826859)
What? The antitrust case against Microsoft had absolutely nothing to do with web standards.

You can read all about it here (search for Netscape): http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

Even when the EU looked into IE specifically, they weren't directly concerned with web standards: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-09-15_en.htm?local...

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by kuschku on Friday July 03, 2015 @07:44PM (#9828500)
> Using that market share to break web standards and implement proprietary IE only features that broke html for everyone else and made it impossible to compete, because if you made a standards compliant web browser in 2002 it would not render pages properly that were designed for IE.

Well, Chrome is doing exactly that today. Extending HTML with proprietary features, leading to situatons where websites work "best in Chrome", even today.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by TheDong on Friday July 03, 2015 @04:37PM (#9827816)
The real difference is utterly unrelated to all that.

The reason Microsoft was on the hook was because it was a software vender forcing its choice. Apple is a hardware+software vendor, and when you own both the software and the hardware, you can make more restrictive choices and are not open to the same class of laws.

it's dumb, but that's the main legal difference here as to why the microsoft case doesn't apply to apple.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by cknoxrun on Friday July 03, 2015 @12:29PM (#9826499)
I would argue more that Firefox opened the door and Chrome entered.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by addicted on Friday July 03, 2015 @02:12PM (#9827059)
Preventing other rendering engines is Apple trying to leverage the strength of its iOS platform to help control the future of the internet. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can understand their wanting to have some say on what may be the sole future platform, but lets not pretend it's for some altruistic reason.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by karlshea on Friday July 03, 2015 @02:24PM (#9827126)
I don't think this is true. I doubt they would have a problem with someone implementing their own DOM rendering engine within their own app.

The real restriction is on executing JavaScript, scripting language execution isn't allowed except around some exceptions for Lua in game engines.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by aaronem on Friday July 03, 2015 @11:07PM (#9828980)
"Apple in 2015 is exactly the same company as Microsoft in 1998." OK, gotcha. Substantiation would be nice to see, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by saosebastiao on Friday July 03, 2015 @11:04AM (#9825940)
Google and Mozilla have developed superior browsers for android. The browsers are the only thing I miss now that I've switched to iPhone.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by snowwrestler on Friday July 03, 2015 @03:16PM (#9827432)
The issue is not "one button," the issue is power management. Even in OS X, there is a noticeable difference in the energy efficiency of Safari vs. Chrome or Firefox. That matters way more on a mobile phone.

If users installed Chrome, and their battery died an hour earlier or more, would they blame Chrome? Most would not. Most people have no idea that different versions of the application (a browser) can have that large of a difference in power drain.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by Oletros on Saturday July 04, 2015 @02:51AM (#9829481)
Oh, the beauty of you're too stupid to have choices do I won't give you any choice mindset
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by blinkingled on Friday July 03, 2015 @12:38PM (#9826540)
>most of whom appreciate there's only 1 icon they need to click on to access the Internet.

That's clearly bs though. Most of those could continue to have one icon they can click. Nobody is forcing two more icons on them. A page from Windows history - for a long time even though alternative browsers were always available people continued to click on the one blue e icon until IE languished more each passing day and alternatives got better and better. Apple could keep safari top notch and most will not realize that alternatives exist. But if they don't (as current status quo implies they're slower to catch up with standards and fix bugs) people switch and progress continues.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by justthistime_ on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:15AM (#9825688)
> The way to get Apple's attention is for Google or Firefox > to develop a superior browser and browsing experience on > Android, that users take notice is missing from iOS and is > regarded as a USP for Android.

I think not suffering from websites saying "sorry, iOS is not supported" qualifies as a superior browsing experience.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by evilduck on Friday July 03, 2015 @02:49PM (#9827267)
But Safari for iOS is still pretty standards compliant, performant and modern, and far better than Android as a whole when you consider the huge chunk of Android users on an old version of Android that will never see an update (the same users who will just use the default baked in browser). Saying iOS isn't supported would generally be artificial constraints on the part of the site builder on principle, not an actual practical issue with serving them a web page.

You'd easily be shown to be the asshole when a jailbreaker or someone with a proxy spoofed their user agent and loaded your page just fine. Not supporting a browser without a valid technical reason that the layperson can ever sort of understand will totally undermine your position.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by nfm on Friday July 03, 2015 @07:14PM (#9828413)
FUD! https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

Only 5.9% of Android users are on obsolete 2.x. 5.1% are on 4.0.x, for which Chrome was just EOL'ed at version 42 (http://blog.chromium.org/2015/03/freezing-chrome-for-ice-cre...), which compares very favorably to the current and previous versions of Safari (http://caniuse.com/#compare=chrome+42,safari+7,safari+7.1,sa...).

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by mythz on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:22AM (#9825730)
Sure if enough popular Internet properties targeting the mobile web decided to commit commercial suicide and started purposely ignoring one of its most lucrative user-bases. Should enough websites do this, I'd expect it would just increase the appeal of native Apps.

Ultimately I'd think the only noticable effect it would have is the 2s it takes users to navigate away from the site to never return again.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by sanderjd on Friday July 03, 2015 @01:31PM (#9826831)
Reading the threads on this page has really solidified for me that this is the exact same phenomenon as the IE winter. Your comment (and a few others) are word for word the argument for why everybody had to keep supporting IE6 for all those years. You're totally right, of course; it's just a shame because we were just beginning to get excited that this problem had been solved!
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by wutbrodo on Friday July 03, 2015 @11:02PM (#9828970)
This was solidified for me years ago: back when people used to get worked up about Apple vs Android[1], any talk about the negatives of restricting browser choice, keyboard choice, etc was met with "not everyone wants a platform that they can completely hack to run Gentoo lol, most people just want a phone that works". Hearing people say that on HN without even a hint of self-awareness of the actual danger of arbitrarily limiting choice on a platform was shocking, but I got over it years ago.

[1] For the life of me, I have never understood how childish one has to be to have an _emotional response_ to something like that. Whenever people would ask me my opinion and I'd state why I chose X over Y, they'd project "Wow you really hate Apple" onto me for some reason.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by throwaway000002 on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:45AM (#9825851)
And one way your serve users is by enabling developers to produce compelling content for them, instead of using them as leverage to extort developers into walled gardens.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by zeitg3ist on Friday July 03, 2015 @09:54AM (#9825576)
So, make your site completely inaccessible under iOS? Your users are going to blame you, not Apple.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by brudgers on Friday July 03, 2015 @11:08AM (#9825957)
Either it pays off to take a dependency on Apple or it doesn't. The costs of the dependency are both short-term - building apps for the Apple app store and supporting Mobile Safari - and long term in the form of Apple changing it's "API" arbitrarily in ways detrimental to your business.

My point is that your business model is what you can control and change and the odds of changing Apple's business model without changing the nature of the market are zero. Changing your business model can change the market.

Finally, if your business's customers are more loyal to orthogonal aspects of Apple than to your business then it is better to think of those customers as Apple's rather than your business's. There's nothing to be gained by wishing it were otherwise.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by frandroid on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:06AM (#9825646)
Try selling cutting off more than 50% of the audience to your manager.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by brudgers on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:24AM (#9825744)
If there's no business case, there's no business case. That's just business. Since it's just business, there's nothing to complain about because it's just business. On the other hand, signing a petition isn't business and Apple will ignore it because...well it isn't business. All of that is ok by me. I think it is unfortunate if people waste energy wishing it was otherwise rather than getting down to business.

If your business has a dependency on Apple, your options are limited. If you have a manager, your options are to do as your manager directs; or not and run the risks; or find another job.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by Retra on Friday July 03, 2015 @03:29PM (#9827511)
"Business" is a big word and it means a lot. And nothing is "just business." What's the point in even saying that, except to paint with some rhetoric that assumes you are just and correct in the first place? "It's just business" is not an argument, it's a trite excuse for ceding responsibility.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by brudgers on Friday July 03, 2015 @04:27PM (#9827756)
'Business" captures:

1. That Apple isn't a nice person or a mean person because Apple is an "it" not a "they."

2. That the only important thing is running a sound business and that decisions are ruthlessly grounded in economics.

3. That none of it is personal.

Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by tsieling on Friday July 03, 2015 @12:52PM (#9826622)
Throwing a bunch of people under the bus as pawns to 'get Apple's attention' is abhorrent. The 'your kind' wording really takes it that much lower.
Re:Safari isn’t the problem, but the lack of browser choice ... by task_queue on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:50AM (#9825879)
"Sorry, this page doesn't work with IE6. Click here to download Mozilla Firefox"