News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by modeless on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @03:21AM (#9803512)
How can the author write this entire article without mentioning the real numbers that matter? The mining reward is currently 3600 bitcoins per day in block rewards, plus about 20 bitcoins in transaction fees. That means if miners are rational they will collectively buy about 3620 bitcoins worth of electricity per day.

3620 bitcoins buy a lot of electricity for sure. But it won't always be like this! The block reward halves next year, and transaction volumes will probably increase. Then rational miners will spend perhaps around 1830 bitcoins on electricity per day, while processing more transactions. Wow, we've more than doubled the efficiency in a year!

Furthermore, the block reward keeps halving every couple of years until it goes all the way to 0! At that point, the only thing funding the miners will be transaction fees, so the full costs of running the network will be borne by the users, and market forces will decide the appropriate level of resources to spend on running the Bitcoin network. It could be higher or lower than 215 MW, depending on how useful Bitcoin becomes to users.

Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by slg on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @03:49AM (#9803617)
I mean this in the strict economic sense and not the "Bitcoin is irrational" sense, but is there any proof that Bitcoin miners are rational actors as either individuals or as a community as a whole?
Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by darawk on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @03:53AM (#9803632)
If people are losing money mining, they'll either stop mining or run out of money to pay their electricity bills. Either way, problem solves itself.
Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by slg on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @04:09AM (#9803683)
Your first point is a tautology because it relies on the assumption that miners are rational. I can certainly see scenarios where they continue to mine without it being immediately profitable. For example, people are bad at dealing with sunk costs. Imagine a miner paying money for a mining rig and then continuing to mine even when it is unprofitable to "pay off the rig". Or perhaps they have the somewhat more rational belief that Bitcoin will increase in value in the future so they are comfortable taking an immediate loss on the electricity.

Your second point relies on the assumption that Bitcoin is a closed system. Without people injecting value into the system, Bitcoins would be worth $0. So you are basically predicting that people will suddenly stop bringing money they earned elsewhere to support mining Bitcoin. This point also relies of the opposite of the old Keynes "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" quote. If we are waiting for people to go broke to keep the market rational, how long will that take and will the market be able to endure however long it is?

Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by darawk on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @05:14AM (#9803886)
I think the answer to your question is unequivocally yes. Information is too perfect in bitcoin mining it to diverge too far from its rational rate.

Calculating your (probable) return is trivial, and calculating your cost is trivial. Ergo calculating your profit is trivial.

Mining at a loss in anticipation of a price rise doesn't make sense. If you are mining in anticipation of a price rise and you have the finances to buy and support a mining rig, then you should just take that money and buy coins on the open market. The only people for whom mining at a loss makes sense are people who already have sunk costs in mining rigs.

The idea that the bitcoin market will, in aggregate, not realize this, is far-fetched at best.

Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by golergka on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @04:40AM (#9803777)
> the only thing funding the miners will be transaction fees

How does that work, exactly? I thought that the only reward that the miners get is the block reward hard-wired in the system. Is there another mechanism that allows them to negotiate transaction prices with clients and accept/decline transactions?

Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by modeless on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @04:25PM (#9808204)
Bitcoin transactions include an optional fee, chosen by the sender, which is paid to the miner who mines the block containing that transaction. Miners choose which transactions go into their blocks. They can accept or decline transactions at will, and also choose which transactions are processed first. Rational miners will process higher fee transactions first, and may also set a fee threshold below which they reject transactions. This mechanism is already in place and working.

Currently transaction fees are negligible compared to the block reward. Many miners are willing to process 0 fee transactions because it hardly costs them anything and promotes use of the network. However this will change over time as the block reward declines and transaction fees become more important.

Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by ufo on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @01:47PM (#9807100)
Bitcoin fees are more like "tips"m there is no negotiation involved. When someone posts a bitcoin transaction to the network, they can optionally include a fee along with it. When miners bundle up transactions into blocks to add to the blockchain they give priority to transactions with higher fees.

Of course, the huge problem here is that there is only an incentive to add substantial fees if the number of transactions is larger than the maximum the network can handle. If they increase the blocksize to allow for more transactions per minute then there will be less incentive to pay fees. The fee system is also not very friendly to microtransactions because its not percentage based.

Re:Bitcoin is Unsustainable? by drdeca on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @01:44PM (#9807068)
Iirc, a transaction has some number of ongoing and outgoing things, and the part of the ingoing things which don't go to outgoing things goes to the miner of the block that includes the transaction.

The specifics of that might not be quite right.

But a transaction generally specifies some amount which goes to whoever mines a block which includes the transaction.

If one wants their transaction to be included in a block more quickly, one can include a higher transaction fee, so that miners have a greater incentive to include your transaction in a block compared to other transactions.

I am fairly sure that the above is basically correct, but not entirely sure.

I don't actually own and have not used bitcoin, I'm just interested in the space.