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Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @07:37AM (#9407332)
>> There's a lot of technical debt that needs to be paid, but it's getting better.

You should just leave these sort of statements out of your introduction. It's generally assumed all projects have some degree of technical debt, and you'll lose more users (i.e. most) than you'd gain (i.e. 0) by trying to treat the subject with candor.

In other words, don't sell yourself short. Speak directly to why someone would want Sortix right away. In your intro, speak as if Sortix exists, fully formed, and complete. Let people come to their own conclusions about the quality.

For example, I'd rewrite the opening sentence from

    Sortix is a small self-hosting Unix-like operating system developed since 2011 aiming 
    to be a clean and modern POSIX implementation.
To

    Sortix is a clean and modern POSIX implementation.
Believe me, I've never released a project that I thought was complete. That's not because I've never released a project, it's because I'll probably never consider any of my projects "complete". There will always be more to add, more to take away, more to do. It adds nothing to my description to call my projects incomplete. The game is thus figuring out when to cut my engineering-self off and engage my sales-self.
Re:The Sortix Operating System by sortie on Monday April 20, 2015 @10:03AM (#9408119)
I'm not trying to gain users. Sortix 0.9 is not permanently installable on real hardware from itself. The upcoming release will contain an installer for permanent installation, however. You are quite simply not my audience. Even if I did aggressively market myself, my OS will not be useful to most. If you installed it, you would quickly want feature X, such as networking or a GUI, and feel disappointed it does not live up to your unrealistic expectations. This is a small hobbyist operating system. The people I want to attract are capable developers and power users willing to actually put Sortix to use.
Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @12:56PM (#9409350)
I'm not saying that you need to spend less time developing and more time selling. Your goals are your concern and your priority. I completely understand wanting to work on code and not put any effort into selling and let whomever show up that will. That has been my default state for the last 15 years.

But, while you said "I'm not trying to gain users", you also said "The people I want to attract are...". Those two statements aren't compatible. Developers (like me) are a type of user.

Whatever you want to call them--developers, users, minions, whatever--when your audience has several choices available to them for how they spend their time, marketing is just the means by which we try to convince people to take our option over some other option.

Personally, I'm getting a little tired of being on my own for all of my projects, so I am making myself learn more about marketing. I had just hoped to share.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by wolfgke on Monday April 20, 2015 @08:44AM (#9407638)
Being German, I think rather differently (probably this is a different culture; US citizens might think differently) about this. Consider

    Sortix is a small self-hosting Unix-like operating system developed since 2011 aiming 
    to be a clean and modern POSIX implementation.
vs.

    Sortix is a clean and modern POSIX implementation.
If it isn't yet a clean POSIX implementation, the second one is a blatant lie to a potential user (which they will and should not forgive). On the other hand, the first one is quite honest in that is clearly tells what is there and the clear commitment to reach a clean and modern POSIX implementation - sounds fair and honest.
Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @09:15AM (#9407807)
I don't think BMW, with their slogan "The Ultimate Driving Machine", shares your notion of what it means to be German, then. Or even Volkswagen with "Das Auto", is it really the car, or just a car?

It'd be lying if he were to say "we have 100% POSIX compliance." Very few OS projects can claim that. It needs to also be version-qualified, as there are several POSIX standards and even Windows can claim compliance with some of the versions.

My point is that this information of the current state of the project does not belong in the introduction to the project. The fact that it is a Zero-Point-Something version number is information enough that the project is incomplete.

SpaceX "...DESIGNS, MANUFACTURES AND LAUNCHES ADVANCED ROCKETS AND SPACECRAFT". They don't add caveats about completeness or design flaws or anything of that sort in their introduction.

And my reduction is just a call-out. The introductory section of the site is three paragraphs and a sentence long. It's not an introduction at all, at that point. All of these extraneous details are specifically making the introduction less clear, not more.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by TurkTurkleton on Monday April 20, 2015 @10:01AM (#9408105)
> I don't think BMW, with their slogan "The Ultimate Driving Machine", shares your notion of what it means to be German, then.

Or maybe they understand that different marketing approaches are required in different cultures. The slogan BMW uses in German-speaking markets is "Freude am Fahren" (roughly, "driving pleasure", or to be somewhat more literal, "pleasure while driving"), which is a bit more modest than "The Ultimate Driving Machine".

Re:The Sortix Operating System by wolfgke on Monday April 20, 2015 @10:07AM (#9408147)
So true. "The Ultimate Driving Machine" would rather be seen as confirmation of the "swaggerer image" that BMW sometimes has (and BMW is in my observation trying to get away from).
Re:The Sortix Operating System by wolfgke on Monday April 20, 2015 @10:04AM (#9408127)
> I don't think BMW, with their slogan "The Ultimate Driving Machine", shares your notion of what it means to be German, then. Or even Volkswagen with "Das Auto", is it really the car, or just a car?

The slogan "Das Auto" for VW at least in Germany can rather be considered as a subtile hint that probably most Germans, when they think of a car, first think of a VW (hinting the deep interleaving of post-WW-II German culture and VW). At least that's what I see in this slogan.

Apart from this: There is a large difference between using "stupid" slogans (that can also be considered as something like mission statements) and claiming properties that simply are not there (fraud).

> The fact that it is a Zero-Point-Something version number is information enough that the project is incomplete.

Say, OpenSSL was 0.9 for many years and was at that time still highly stable and complete. There is a wide gap between "very incomplete" and "basically ready", so in my opinion 0.x tells nothing, except the developers still see things to be done.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by charliefg on Monday April 20, 2015 @08:46AM (#9407652)
Even Linux v1.0 has:

>> It aims towards POSIX compliance

in the readme

Re:The Sortix Operating System by thrownaway122 on Monday April 20, 2015 @11:54AM (#9408919)
This sort of thing really annoys me. Everytime I need a new library or new software I seem to have wade through loads of unfinished, unmaintained solutions claiming to be "clean and modern" or some other buzzword.

> It adds nothing to my description to call my projects incomplete. The game is thus figuring out when to cut my engineering-self off and engage my sales-self.

It would add everything to potential user loyalty to admit where your project falls down. Once someone has spent hours using your product only to find out that the edge cases come too often or the implementation is incomplete they may never come back. If however, you state clearly what is missing then they may well watch for improvements.

SO I would go for something: > Sortix aims to be a clean and modern POSIX implementation.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by bitwize on Monday April 20, 2015 @09:04AM (#9407754)
> You should just leave these sort of statements out of your introduction. It's generally assumed all projects have some degree of technical debt, and you'll lose more users (i.e. most) than you'd gain (i.e. 0) by trying to treat the subject with candor.

Man, if only you were here to advise that poor college student in 1991 who announced his OS project as "just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu"... he might have had a fighting chance of getting it off the ground and who knows where we would be today? :)

Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @09:22AM (#9407847)
We don't live in the plucky, upstart 1991 anymore. "If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." (http://gondwanaland.com/meta/history/interview.html). We live in today, a world that has several open-source OSes available, with users who are used to seeing projects on the internet.
Re:The Sortix Operating System by reycharles on Monday April 20, 2015 @09:29AM (#9407888)
Note that Jonas is Danish. Danes are often very modest. Even Carlsberg's slogan is "probably the best beer in the world".
Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @09:33AM (#9407911)
The Carlsberg example isn't not modesty, it's false-modesty. It's just meant to sound cheeky, while still getting the message "best beer in the world" into people's minds.
Re:The Sortix Operating System by thrownaway122 on Monday April 20, 2015 @09:50AM (#9408021)
Janteloven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law

The case of the Carlsberg slogan may not be Janteloven. However, if I were a betting man I'd say that the advertising creative who came up with it either knew about the concept or got the idea from some Danish executive's modesty.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by ChikkaChiChi on Monday April 20, 2015 @10:52AM (#9408458)
Thanks for the interesting read. This just depressingly explained the company I work for in a way I've struggled to for years.
Re:The Sortix Operating System by philh on Monday April 20, 2015 @11:33AM (#9408774)
I'm not saying you're wrong, but it does feel to me like you're encouraging Jonas to defect in a negative-sum game. He can get more users by engaging his sales-self, but his engineering-self is treating his users more respectfully.
Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @12:08PM (#9409031)
More respectfully than what? I don't think making your introduction clear and concise is "less respectful".
Re:The Sortix Operating System by philh on Monday April 20, 2015 @12:58PM (#9409379)
You say "It adds nothing to my description to call my projects incomplete", but "incomplete" isn't really what's at stake. I agree with you that software is basically never complete. But some software is "production-ready" in some sense that I consider meaningful. And I think that

> Sortix is a small self-hosting Unix-like operating system developed since 2011 aiming to be a clean and modern POSIX implementation.

makes it clear (or at least strongly hints) that Sortix is not production-ready, while

> Sortix is a clean and modern POSIX implementation.

pretends that Sortix is production-ready, and I consider that to be disrespectful.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by g1236627 on Monday April 20, 2015 @07:42AM (#9407351)
I highly doubt the target audience care about that..
Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @07:51AM (#9407376)
There is nothing about niche audiences that make them particularly forgiving consumers. Quite the opposite, actually. Niche audiences tend to be the most critical. Don't readily hand them ammunition to dismiss a project early.

A niche audience might look past silly logos, or even adopt them wholehearted as part of their "other" identity. But they are still consumers and still need to be marketed to. In this case, a bad logo is better than no logo.

But bad copy is just bad copy.

Most people won't actually use any particular project they read about. Most of early-stage marketing (and posting links like this to link-share sites like HN) is about gaining mind-share. You're investing time now in getting your name out so that--6 months from now--people who will eventually become your core users will say to themselves, "yeah, I remember hearing about that."

And when they say that to themselves, they are going to retain that mental picture of the project from when they first heard about it. If that picture is "incomplete, pie-in-the-sky", then they will continue to think of it as that. You now have to fight against the long-tail of converting people over to the new normal of your project being "complete".

Granted, if Jonas Termansen has no interest in having users, then he should just ignore my post completely. But then, why did he prop up a website for his project, a project he's labored on for 4 years now?

If you put that kind of effort into something, you owe it to yourself to not sell it short.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by vezzy-fnord on Monday April 20, 2015 @10:57AM (#9408501)
Honesty about flaws is an integral part of FOSS culture. It's why lots of manpages have a "BUGS" section.

I'm afraid this is one area where startup culture conflicts.

Re:The Sortix Operating System by moron4hire on Monday April 20, 2015 @12:06PM (#9409008)
The BUGS section is not the intro section.