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Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by nostrademons on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @02:43PM (#9298897)
Ex-Googler here, worked with a lot of user data, including a project to collect more of it.

Within Google, data's collected primarily to build better products. Or at least that's what the majority of the rank & file believe, and personally I believe the executives believe it too. This has the effect of widening the moat between them and competitors, but it also has real, tangible convenience benefits for users. I can guarantee that the majority of folks are thinking of those benefits, not the additional ad revenue, when building new products. I worked in Search for 5 years and was explicitly told by executives to ignore Ads when making decisions; they have plenty of their own engineers whose job is to optimize revenue.

This may seem hard to believe for someone who's never worked at a place that improved a product based on data, but it's a really fundamental part of the culture. You see the headlines about the NSA or Google's threat to privacy; you rarely see any news story about the A/B test they're running or the new feature in Android/Gmail/Chrome/Search that you get to use because usage logs showed that it took you too long to accomplish your task and some engineer decided to fix it.

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by pdkl95 on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @03:24PM (#9299188)
> data's collected primarily to build better products

That's may be true today, but one of features that distinguishes modern forms of surveillance from what was possible in the past is that truly massive amounts of data can now be stored "forever"[1].

Google itself may change what it wants to do with its data in the future. Worse, the fact that data was captured at all means it will be available for a subpoena or "national security letter" and Google will have little say in what happens to the data.

[1] the value of "forever" generally varies by the size of the available budget, which is "large enough" in the case of nation-states and companies the size of Google (or Apple)

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by nostrademons on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @03:45PM (#9299346)
So I'm not here to say whether or not people's fears are justified. I don't know; I can't predict the future either. There have certainly been ample cases where a belief that was true of Google management once was not true the next year.

The original question posed, though, was "Why do people at Google/Facebook/NSA continue to collect all this data? What's their purpose?", which I think I answered. While it may not be true in 10 years, it's true now.

Also, I think that the sheer pace of change today may insulate a lot of people from the consequences of having data available on them. The data may be out there - but by the time it gets into the wrong hands, it no longer reflects reality, which makes it largely useless. That guy who talks about having his dick sucked by sororisluts [1] may, in a couple years, be the guy with 200 million users whose company you desperately want to invest in.

[1] http://techcrunch.com/2014/05/28/confirmed-snapchats-evan-sp...

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by jacquesm on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @04:38PM (#9299717)
Combine google profiles, facebook and 23andme and I think that the data will have repercussions even beyond the lives of those directly addressed by it.
Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by sneak on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @07:22PM (#9300553)
Forget about today. How many Google SREs are NSA assets today?

It's not about why you collect the data. It's that a massive database of such information exists. The intent in mind when building a system has no jurisdiction over the potential uses later.

If the NSA wants the data and it's inside of a US-jurisdiction entity, they will get it. Period. Maybe they NSL some people with legitimate access and make sure they know they go to federal if they let their boss find out. Maybe they recruit some SREs. Maybe they blackmail the night watchman in the building that holds the equipment that has the dark fiber L2 encryption keys so that they can get the inter-datacenter link monitoring going again.

It doesn't matter what people intended when they built it. The fact is that it exists and the men with guns and a money printing press want it. Game over.

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by pekk on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @08:54PM (#9300907)
Do you mean assets, or employees? There is a difference... normally the word "asset" is used to refer to people who are recruited and run for human intelligence purposes ("spies"), e.g. using payouts or blackmail - for example, there is no health insurance which comes with being a CIA "asset," while a CIA employee even under non-official cover does have benefits.
Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by EdSharkey on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @03:35PM (#9299276)
Wow, Google sounds pretty cool inside! Sure, Google makes a lot of money, but the tech execs aren't focused on that and it's a data-driven business. I have no idea how impressive Google really is inside, but every time I hear about it, Google sounds so darn impressive!

And then I recall about Prism. And I think about how a secret program like that costs money and significant technical involvement from the host to run. Google took public money to help run Prism, and Google techs actively supported the dragnet. Pretty shameful, IMO.

As an ex-Googler who apparently can speak out, I ask you: if Google has competitors that are privacy focused, isn't it in everyone's best interest to select the competitors' products over Google's despite Google's excellence? And, can you report if anything has been done at Google to lift this stink of surveillance from its products?

Is Google still a willing participant in Prism-style data collection of its users?

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by nostrademons on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @04:05PM (#9299488)
So, when the news about Prism [1] broke, people inside Google were really, really baffled, because nobody had ever heard of it. We eventually came to the conclusion that Prism must be the NSA code word for FISA court orders [2], which is a lawfully mandated procedure where a court requires that an Internet company turn over records of a specific user under court order. From the outside, it's a big story; from the inside, it's one of those boring legal restrictions that we need policies in place to deal with.

Then the news about MUSCULAR [3] broke, and people were very, very pissed [4]. I saw the internal reports where people put together what must have happened; I'm not sure what sort of details I'm allowed to say, but it basically amounted to the U.S. (well, technically the UK, acting on behalf of the NSA) conducting military operations against the property of its own citizens. Google ended up encrypting all inter-datacenter traffic soon after. [5]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillan...

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSCULAR_%28surveillance_progra...

[4] https://plus.google.com/108799184931623330498/posts/SfYy8xbD...

[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/google-enc...

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by EdSharkey on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @04:38PM (#9299716)
Thank you for the classy response. Every time I think about this surveillance state situation we find ourselves in, I have trouble staying civil.

This news item you reminded me of - "Google ended up encrypting all inter-datacenter traffic soon after" - makes sense as a response that the government can't argue with (yet).

Looking over the MUSCULAR wikipedia article, I wonder if the NSA could still capture the user's and enterprise's unencrypted data at the Google Front End Servers like they had been before the inter-datacenter traffic was encrypted?

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by jacquesm on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @04:39PM (#9299724)
It would be a fairly safe assumption that anything that hits the United States at a minimum has traffic analysis done on it. Most google services now use HTTPS at the front end.
Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by fweespeech on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @06:01PM (#9300199)
http://thenextweb.com/google/2015/03/27/google-loses-bid-to-...

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2903192/safari-users-in-the-u...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/15/us-privacy-google-...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/technology/google-pays-fin...

http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/01/hamburg-google/

Please understand, I'm not saying your wrong...I'm just saying from the outside [even as someone who works in IT and relies on data to make decisions] that I've never worked at a company that had any of these issues. It could be a question of scale and the fact Google is an easy target to make a headline with.

Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by jacquesm on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @03:41PM (#9299325)
That's the heart of the problem: privacy is at odds with 'perfect safety' and 'convenience'.
Re:After Snowden, the NSA Faces Recruitment Challenge by tomaskafka on Tuesday March 31, 2015 @04:22PM (#9299622)
If I was running an organization that collects world's private data and builds self driving military robots while their robotic woman is planning to chip general populace (http://allthingsd.com/20130603/passwords-on-your-skin-and-in...), I'd totally want my people to think that they are helping the world, just like Hitler did.

When they'd found out what evil thing they have collectively assembled, piece by piece, each of them blinded by his inexperience and enthusiasm for pure science, it would be too late.

And I'd finally have to replace them with expensive hired guns, or more clueless people, like some SV 20-something startup kids who would kill for 20 minutes of techcrunch fame.