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Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by comboy on Sunday February 15, 2015 @08:33AM (#9052555)
And so will AC systems in local banks.

The problem is not that something consumes energy if there are people willing to pay for that energy. The problem is how we generate electricity. It's getting better, but it has nothing to do with bitcoin.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by joosters on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:02AM (#9052752)
The point about Bitcoin in particular is that it is deliberately consuming vast amounts of computing power.

The mathematics behind the individual transactions and ledger maintenance are relatively simple. Getting computers to do this part requires almost no effort. It's the deliberate 'find a needle in a haystack' part of the protocol (which is there to ratelimit the creation of bitcoins) that wastes all of the energy.

The fact that this needle-finding task is deliberately difficult, wasteful and time-consuming is the horrific part.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by celticninja on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:07AM (#9052768)
It's only wasteful if there is a better alternative, which there isn't so it's not. If you don't understand bitcoin it is easy to make the mistake that the electricity is just used to generate bitcoins, however it is also used to secure an international low cost payment network.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by mpyne on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:13AM (#9052785)
> secure an international low cost payment network

That's something which is actually handled fine in fiat, believe it or not.

Nor is Bitcoin "low cost": Even with the price in the dumps recently a Bitcoin transaction still averages about $10 per transaction.

Nor can Bitcoin feasibly handle international commerce, given that it's still capped in theory to 7 transactions per second, and in practice to 2-3 transactions per second, and this total capacity also has to support non-remittance transfers such as the normal exchange hackings (like BTER today) and SatoshiDice (which can take up about half of all Bitcoin protocol capacity on some days).

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by A_COMPUTER on Sunday February 15, 2015 @01:44PM (#9053539)
>That's something which is actually handled fine in fiat, believe it or not.

Not if you're Wikileaks. Bitcoin was (probably) built to solve the kind of problems they had getting money transferred to them. there's a cost associated with a low-trust network.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by ufo on Sunday February 15, 2015 @04:55PM (#9054304)
Since bitcoin has a public ledger, its possible to envision a system where the authorities punish anyone that sends bitcoin to addresses controlled by wikileaks or accepts bitcoins from them.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by thanksgiving on Monday February 16, 2015 @11:08AM (#9057491)
Can the authorities force me to confirm or deny my control of any given bitcoin wallet though?
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by ufo on Monday February 16, 2015 @10:55PM (#9060586)
They can use "rubber hose" crypto to interfere with your bitcoin usage. The point is that the lack of anonymity is a bad thing when you are facing against a powerful adversary.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by unabridged on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:46AM (#9052888)
>a Bitcoin transaction still averages about $10 per transaction.

How does this make it not low cost? Transferring that $10 still only costs $.02

>capped in theory to 7 transactions per second

Not 7 transactions but 7 settlements per second, which clear in under 60 minutes. You can have as many binding transactions per second as you want off the chain.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by mpyne on Sunday February 15, 2015 @04:58PM (#9054318)
> Not 7 transactions but 7 settlements per second, which clear in under 60 minutes. You can have as many binding transactions per second as you want off the chain.

If you're willing to engage in transactions off-chain then you might as well use PayPal or other fiat. The blockchain and the protocol surrounding its maintenance is central to Bitcoin and its philosophy, it's not merely some 'nice-to-have' feature that should be jettisoned as soon as it becomes inconvenient.

After all, the blockchain is the one and only authoritative Bitcoin ledger, everything else in Bitcoin is an IOU, no matter how sensible it might seem, which is why Bitcoin itself will reject a transaction if it's not included into a mined block in time.

And either way, way to ignore the in-practice 2-3 transaction per second limit.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by inoop on Sunday February 15, 2015 @11:32AM (#9053052)
> How does this make it not low cost? Transferring that $10 still only costs $.02

Assuming max TPS rate of 3tps, a 10-minute block will contain 3 * 60 * 10 = 1800 transactions. Each block generates 25btc, which is equivalent $6125 at the current $245 price.

Each transaction therefore costs $6125 / 1800 = $3.40.

Of this only a small amount is paid for the by the person who creates the transaction, the rest of paid for by those who hold Bitcoin.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by mpyne on Sunday February 15, 2015 @04:54PM (#9054302)
> Of this only a small amount is paid for the by the person who creates the transaction, the rest of paid for by those who hold Bitcoin.

I always find it ironic that the illusion of low fees per transaction in Bitcoin is subsidized by the ongoing inflation of the money supply. Apparently inflation is acceptable when it helps evangelize the product you're trying to sell, but it's not acceptable monetary policy in any other situation.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by atom-morgan on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:58AM (#9052928)
> That's something which is actually handled fine in fiat, believe it or not

How? Are we comparing transaction fees?

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by ufo on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:14AM (#9052791)
Its not low cost if you need to emit tons of CO2 to maintain the network though.

The issue with bitcoin when it comes to cost is that unlike traditional centralized systems, cheaper energy or more efficient computers don't translate to making it cheaper to run the network. What happens is that miners get to afford more hashes per second and the overall hashrate goes up, with the mining difficulty also going up to compensate, making mining even more wasteful.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by EGreg on Sunday February 15, 2015 @12:14PM (#9053225)
"It's only wasteful if there is a better alternative, which there isn't so it's not."

The alternative is to get by without it. There are fiat currencies, proof of stake and much more.

Capitalism of any kind always seeks to exploit externalities. The cost of producing electricity is currently not reflective of the true future cost of the pollution. That is the externality. Every metric in a capitalistic system is designed to reward the exploitation of externalities.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by lifeformed on Sunday February 15, 2015 @12:52PM (#9053334)
But that's what makes it work. The energy is required. Just because it doesn't use the energy in some cool mechanical way doesn't mean it's being wasted. If you look at it as a black box, then it's a perfectly reasonable expense.

You could look at a space heater and say: wow, it just wastes all this electricity, deliberately causing resistive elements to heat up. Well, of course, the heat is intended. With bitcoins, the extra calculations are a part of what makes everything work.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by kordless on Sunday February 15, 2015 @01:01PM (#9053363)
Consensus can be achieved with much lower power consumption. Don't blindly accept a solution just because you agree with the outcome.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by altoz on Sunday February 15, 2015 @09:33AM (#9052682)
And the computer systems that run the bank. And the disaster recovery systems that back up the bank. And the cars that come to the bank to do banking. And the construction vehicles that build ATM's, bank vaults, bank buildings. And the furniture production systems that supply the bank with furniture...

It goes on and on. Most of that stuff, bitcoin doesn't have to do at all.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by oco101 on Sunday February 15, 2015 @02:40PM (#9053754)
I see this argument all the time.The point is that you cold achieve blockhain consensus without all that wasted energy and polluting the planet.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by TimSAstro on Sunday February 15, 2015 @08:46AM (#9052583)
While I'll be interested to see how the blockchain gets exploited for new tech, there are a couple of problems with your statement. First, right now there is a problem with how we generate energy, and a centralized banking system should be a lot more efficient in that regard, for all its other flaws - Bitcoin relies on the calculations being difficult and therefore compute/energy intensive, after all. Second, even if we had perfectly clean energy generation, there is a limit to how much we can use unless we get into really crazy future tech like exhausting energy into space via refrigerant/laser system: see http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-.... (also the `Sundiver' sci-fi!).
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by skrause on Sunday February 15, 2015 @09:58AM (#9052743)
The difference is that you can optimize the current banking system for lower power consumption. Bitcoin mining will always be a race on who can waste the most resources/electricity for mining.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by PythonicAlpha on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:06AM (#9052764)
That is right, but does not take into account, that by construction, the system is becoming more efficient over time. The rise in computing power for every Bitcoin is reflecting that more transactions are done per Bitcoin over time. So, more and more efficient hardware is used and thus the relative energy needed per transaction is dropping.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by mpyne on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:16AM (#9052796)
But that doesn't take into account that Bitcoin price increases (since we're assuming for the sake of argument that the price will actually reach insane heights again) cause mining hashrate to go up, which causes network difficulty to go up, which is by definition less efficient.

In essence, Bitcoin's harm to the ecosystem is almost directly proportional to Bitcoin price.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by PythonicAlpha on Sunday February 15, 2015 @11:49AM (#9053110)
It does. The rate of transactions is growing faster than the Bitcoin price.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by mpyne on Sunday February 15, 2015 @04:52PM (#9054293)
My fingernails are growing faster than Bitcoin's price... the bigger concern is that Bitcoin is already near its practical transaction-per-second. Just a couple of weeks ago there were a few whole blocks' worth of unconfirmed transactions hanging out, and while that may have improved in the meantime it's just a harbinger of problems to come.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by skrause on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:21AM (#9052813)
With more and more efficient hardware you'll just get a higher number of hashes per second and an increased difficulty. At least someone else will reinvest that saved electricity into more hardware, so you have to do the same to compete.

Just imagine everyone using this more efficient hardware to save money on electricity, not increasing the mining difficulty. Eventually you'll have the risk of a single entity (e.g. a government organization) just buying enough hardware to have more than 50% of the hashing power, taking over the whole blockchain.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by PythonicAlpha on Sunday February 15, 2015 @11:53AM (#9053125)
I do not know exactly, how the mining difficulty is set up, but to my understanding, more and more transactions are possible with not so fast growing energy effort. And the number that is really interesting is the number of transactions per energy unit.

The second argument is something that is independent from the energy problem. The danger always exists, that some entity is taking over the blockchain.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by ufo on Sunday February 15, 2015 @05:01PM (#9054329)
Bitcoin adds a new block to the blockchain every 10 minutes. The difficulty rate is roughly proportional to the total network hash power and is there to keep that constant speed of block generation.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by vbezhenar on Sunday February 15, 2015 @11:41AM (#9053082)
It's not exactly that. More energy-effective systems allow you to mine the same bitcoins with lower electricity expenses. When bitcoin mining will hit the wall of physical restrictions, they will start to optimize energy efficiency.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by jgalt212 on Sunday February 15, 2015 @09:42AM (#9052707)
I think that answer is more than a little flip. Certainly when you consider it's the highest up-voted answer. For such an answer, I'd like to see a broader discussion over value stores (gold, fiat, crypto). I know gold mining is very resource intensive with lots of undesirable by products. That being said, once you mine an ounce of gold, like bitcoin, it last forever. Fiat money, of course, takes almost zero energy to create. It's just a journal entry on some central bank's ledger system.

That's just the creation side. On the use side, there are broadly different costs in using and maintaining gold-based, crypto-based and fiat-based money systems. I would like to see others way in on this.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by nhaehnle on Sunday February 15, 2015 @12:50PM (#9053327)
It would be interesting to see a comparison of CO2 emission by banks and by Bitcoins, keeping in mind (1) the relative scale of what they provide and (2) that Bitcoin provides only a payment system, and one whose security features are not well suited for most people, while the banking system provides much more than a payment system.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by srdev on Monday February 16, 2015 @12:57PM (#9058135)
Banks handle orders of magnitude more transactions and also offer many services beyond the basic Bitcoin network. Thats a dishonest comparison.
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by engendered on Sunday February 15, 2015 @08:43AM (#9052578)
And so will AC systems in local banks.

You can essentially include the entirety of operations of the bank, and the lifestyle of the people employed by the bank. There are literally millions and millions of people throughout the world who do nothing more than manage and monitor a system that moves numbers around and deals with proxy derivatives like bills and coins.

Not that bitcoin is a panacea -- personally it seems completely untenable -- but if we want to talk waste, the current regime is extraordinarily wasteful.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by ncza on Sunday February 15, 2015 @09:22AM (#9052656)
But how much (dare I say little?) of it would be unneeded if bitcoin succeeded?
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by tormeh on Sunday February 15, 2015 @09:43AM (#9052710)
It can't succeed. Cryptocurrencies might succeed, but not bitcoin. It's not even inflationary; it's a cross between a payment system and a pyramid scheme.

Its a bit pedantic, but please don't say bitcoin when you mean cryptocurrency, as bitcoin is a pretty bad one.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by oafitupa on Sunday February 15, 2015 @12:12PM (#9053217)
> It's not even inflationary

And that's exactly the whole point, and is the very reason it's working.

> a pyramid scheme

Then every other successful investment is a pyramid scheme. Gold is a pyramid scheme! Storing food for catastrophes is a pyramid scheme! Paintings are a pyramid scheme!

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by ufo on Sunday February 15, 2015 @05:06PM (#9054345)
Not every investment has to be a pyramid scheme. If you are generating value or selling a product then you end up with more money than what your investors are putting in.

What makes bitcoin into kind of a pyramid scheme is that right now a big part of the reward for miners is the 25 bitcoin you get from mining a block. Only a very small fraction comes from the transaction fees. The only way to keep bitcoin stable is by having a constant supply of new users buying into bitcoin by acquiring those fresh bitcoins from the miners.

Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by calinet6 on Sunday February 15, 2015 @11:09AM (#9052963)
Maybe a naïve question, but are there any good ones we should support instead?
Re:BitcoinEmissions – A project to calculate CO2 emissions o... by the_mitsuhiko on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:08AM (#9052771)
I don't see a world in which Bitcoin would safe even only a single person in the traditional banking world. Bitcoin can neither replace banks nor creditcards. It might replace the ACH.