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Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by blhack on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:16PM (#886096)
You guys laugh...

Keep in mind that, at this point, microsoft was pretty much nothing...

Here was a guy that built something with the intent to sell it, and people said "too bad". Of course he was upset about that.

Now, should he have been philanthropic enough to have just given it away to the community? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter...he coded it, and he did so thinking he would be able to sell it.

I equate those that copied BASIC then to the people that use adblock now. No, they're not really harming the author, but it is a bit discourteous. I think he was just trying to illustrate that "C'mon, guys...I worked really hard on this...I'm not suing you, but just please buy it instead :)"

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by CamperBob on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:49PM (#886145)
That's funny, I equate someone who uses intrusive ads on his website to someone who writes a free BASIC interpreter that stops after every 12 lines and PRINTs an ad to my console.

If you're going to put something out there, free or otherwise, it's your problem to make sure that it's fit for my purpose.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by txxxxd on Friday October 16, 2009 @05:47PM (#886250)
For any product there will always be someone who feels its not fit for their purpose. Its not your problem or the author's problem, its inevitable.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by tptacek on Friday October 16, 2009 @09:19PM (#886485)
If it's not fit for your purposes, fine. Don't use it.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by CamperBob on Saturday October 17, 2009 @12:46AM (#886649)
If it's not fit for my purpose, then I'm somewhat less than interested in hearing you whine about how I didn't pay for it, or about how I used AdBlock to get what value I could out of it.

You're not entitled to my money, and I'm not entitled to your content. The difference is, though, I didn't dangle my wallet on the Internet with the intent of wasting everybody's time.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by DougWebb on Saturday October 17, 2009 @01:01AM (#886665)
So, it's ok to steal from someone, so long as you're only stealing the stuff that's of value to you?

If someone builds a website and puts it out there with advertising, they're saying "Hey everyone, feel free to enjoy what I've built without paying me for it, because I've got these other guys paying for it. Just look at the ads and click on them if you find them interesting, ok?" When you come along with AdBlock, you're making use of the website without allowing the author's arrangement with the advertisers to work. Ultimately, the advertisers will stop paying, and the website must either disappear or become paid-subscription only.

Of course, most people don't like ads, and the more obnoxious they are the more we dislike them and want to block them. But I think we'd like Xanadu less, where every website would have micropayments required to view it. I know that I'd rather put up with ads, especially the less obtrusive ones.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by tptacek on Saturday October 17, 2009 @12:54AM (#886655)
It's funny to see people getting self righteous about evading the intent of content owners. I'm not entitled to your wallet. But if you leave it on the table in my office...
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by thetrumanshow on Friday October 16, 2009 @03:46PM (#886036)
"Who can afford to do professional work for nothing? What hobbyist can put 3-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free?"

Now, this is practically a prerequisite for getting a job at a good company.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by chriseppstein on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:44PM (#886139)
I've heard of a few companies that have this prerequisite, but only a few. I think open source contributions can tip the scales if you're up against a bunch of great candidates, but I don't think the business world works like you make it sound. In fact, I know lots of companies would actually shy away from open source contributors.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by DarkShikari on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:45PM (#886141)
I know lots of companies would actually shy away from open source contributors.

That's great--a perfect way to filter out companies that I would never want to work for.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by falsestprophet on Friday October 16, 2009 @05:01PM (#886161)
I know lots of companies would actually shy away from open source contributors.

Which companies? Why do you think they do?

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by joshz on Saturday October 17, 2009 @07:54AM (#886858)
I interviewed with one. A .NET web development studio, can't remember who specifically. They called the stuff I did "open-sourcy" and I could tell they looked down on it. I think it's the perception that cheap programmers use cheap tools, produce cheap code and are low quality.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by TwoSheds on Sunday October 18, 2009 @04:44AM (#888174)
I see a significant difference between the .Net and Java developer cultures. It would be hard for me to believe that a Java shop would behave according to your description.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by DarkShikari on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:21PM (#886103)
What hobbyist can put 3-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free?

This statement also sounds much more ironic from today's perspective, when there are thousands of open source projects that literally run off this concept.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by borism on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:45PM (#886140)
let's rephrase that a bit:

What hobbyist can put 3-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free for a living?

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by whughes on Friday October 16, 2009 @10:59PM (#886555)
Your rephrasing doesn't make any sense. Bill Gates wants to convince people that hobbyism can't create good software, and he needs the money. Why should the audience (pirates) care about whether hobbyists make a living, as long as they get their software?
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by borism on Saturday October 17, 2009 @03:46AM (#886752)
I was replying to a misconception that somehow today thousands of open source contributors can make a living by simply being that. That's not the case with 99% of open source developers I know.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by gxs on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:53PM (#886149)
That is exactly how I took it, and it stands today.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by MaysonL on Saturday October 17, 2009 @07:30PM (#887612)
One who sold his startup, or has a big enough 401K, and feels like changing the world instead of making more money.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by shpxnvz on Friday October 16, 2009 @09:38PM (#886499)
It's not a hobby if you intend to make a living.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by borism on Saturday October 17, 2009 @03:47AM (#886753)
You can make a living out of hobby. But that's not how most open source developers make a living.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by spot on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:32PM (#886126)
they found all the bugs??

but seriously, gates continues to maintain the fiction that open source = hobbyists not getting paid.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by almost on Friday October 16, 2009 @06:35PM (#886326)
This letter was written quite some time ago, it's certainly not an attack on open source never mind a continuing one :p
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by spot on Sunday October 18, 2009 @12:40PM (#888472)
i know it's an old letter. what i said was based on what i heard gates say last month. he "continues" it today, in addition to doing it back then.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by alexgartrell on Friday October 16, 2009 @05:21PM (#886205)
At the end of the day, someone stole his stuff, so he got pissed. He over-generalized and argued the wrong point, and hindsight kind of made it so he made an ass of himself.

That said, there really are very few people alive who haven't gotten mad and made an ass of themselves at some point, so we should probably forgive this "Open Letter to Hobbyists".

(I saw Gates talk when we opened a new building on Campus and someone asked him about the huge piracy rates in China so he brought up this letter in particular and said he's since learned to not get bent out of shape about it)

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by RevRal on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:04PM (#886071)
The amount of royalties we have received from sales to hobbyists makes the time spent on Altair BASIC worth less than $2 an hour.

I once calculated my per hour wage from the work I did. About $1.50

Hang in there Bill!

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by staunch on Friday October 16, 2009 @11:51PM (#886601)
His $2/hour in 1976 is ~$8/hour in 2009 dollars.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by jacquesm on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:44PM (#886138)
So, nothing changed in all that time. Micro-Soft found out the hard way that hobbyists are 'cheap'. And managed to sell a veritable fortune of software to nicely locked in businesses.

Meanwhile the 'hobbyists' slowly grew in numbers until they outnumbered the 'professionals' (and plenty of them were professionals during the day and 'hobbyists' in the evenings and weekends). And then the web happened, and Microsoft blinked and open source took it and ran with it.

And now, because of that they're facing the first real competition since their inception.

Google would not have happened if it hadn't been for linux, and Sun and SGI would still be in business as well.

The world is changing, rapidly. Let's hope it changes fast enough.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by btilly on Friday October 16, 2009 @06:48PM (#886333)
The bit about "Microsoft blinked" is more complicated than that. The period where they blinked and Linux took off was one where they were distracted by a US anti-trust case. Then when they got ready to come back in force there was a European anti-trust case with large enough fines to actually get their attention.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by jacquesm on Friday October 16, 2009 @07:55PM (#886390)
From the history of microsoft in wikipedia:

"On, May 26, 1995, Bill Gates sent the "Internet Tidal Wave" memorandum to Microsoft executives. The memo described Netscape with their Netscape Navigator as a "new competitor 'born' on the Internet." The memo outlines Microsoft's failure to grasp the Internet's importance, and in it Gates assigns "the Internet this highest level of importance" from then on."

Read it for yourself at:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/exhibits/20.pdf

That's an exhibit from the lawsuit, which came much later.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by btilly on Friday October 16, 2009 @09:00PM (#886463)
The key question is, "When did open source take it and run with it?" After 1995 Microsoft came back, quickly won the browser war, and was putting together their server strategy.

I argue that 1998 was the key year. Here are some highlights. In Feb the term Open Source was created. In April Netscape open sourced Mozilla. In May the Microsoft antitrust case began. In June IBM announced support for Apache. In July both Oracle and Informix announced support for Linux. And in the same month we got the first truly mainstream press coverage of Linux that I'm aware of, Forbes Magazine ran Linus on the cover, and had a good article discussing open source. (Wonderful goodwill that they later destroyed with their horrible SCO reporting.)

I submit that had the lawsuit not started in May, then we would not have had the big announcements from Informix, Oracle and IBM. And during that explosion we would have seen dirty tricks from Microsoft to leverage their browser market into controlling the server as well.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by camccann on Friday October 16, 2009 @09:53PM (#886509)
I submit that had the lawsuit not started in May, then we would not have had the big announcements from Informix, Oracle and IBM. And during that explosion we would have seen dirty tricks from Microsoft to leverage their browser market into controlling the server as well.

Of course, it's precisely their habit of using dirty tricks to force their way into new markets that got them into legal trouble in the first place, so there you go.

On the other hand, Microsoft can do excellent work when faced with real competition, so in a counterfactual world where they never abused their monopoly position they may have won the browser and server markets anyway.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by btilly on Friday October 16, 2009 @10:18PM (#886525)
Won the server markets? According to http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/06/17/june_2009_web_s... Microsoft is a solid #2 but Apache serves more than half of all domains, and more than half of the top million domains. It doesn't look like Microsoft won the server to me!

That said, I don't know what would have happened without the monopoly abuse. Open source makes enough sense that it could have done well. However the meteoric rise in open source happened in large part because the whole industry was willing to do anything to make Microsoft lose. That is why everyone jumped on open source the second it became clear that Microsoft would be unable to retaliate for a bit.

Therefore I suspect that open source would have eventually succeeded, but not as fast, and likely not in webserving.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by DougBTX on Friday October 16, 2009 @09:23PM (#886491)
Aah, Frontpage Extensions, I remember those.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by jacquesm on Friday October 16, 2009 @10:57PM (#886550)
1998 was a milestone, that's true, but 1989 was a much more important milestone, it is when the GPL V 1.0 was written.

The fact that 'open source' got named in 1998 gave it a lot of publicity, but Linux and a whole bunch of other stuff would not have existed in their current form if not for the 1989 version of the GPL.

Open source/Free Software was a movement long before it had a name. MS took too long to take it serious, and the effect that universal net access would have on accelerating open source was very large.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by btilly on Saturday October 17, 2009 @12:56AM (#886660)
I think we are in violent agreement on the facts. It is the interpretation that differs.

I completely agree that the foundations were laid long before 1998. I'm sure we can both name lots of milestones. You cite 1989 for the GPL v1. I could cite 1985 for the invention of the patch utility and the writing of the GNU manifesto. You could cite 1978 for the first release of BSD. And so it goes. Open source software could not have had the breakout year it did in 1998 without being well along a path to success before then.

However I believe that 1998 was the critical year for the widespread acceptance and adoption of open source technology in the web industry. And a critical enabler for that was the fact that Microsoft got slapped with the anti-trust lawsuit, following which all of the major competitors realized that they had a limited time window to take down Microsoft, and therefore all jumped on the open source bandwagon. Do you remember how much it changed the game to have IBM and Oracle putting their reputation behind Linux and Apache? Obviously Microsoft was fully aware at that point that open source was a huge threat, however they couldn't jump on it because their hands were tied by the lawsuit.

Without the lawsuit the major vendors wouldn't have dared to get behind open source. That would have slowed adoption and acceptance significantly. Furthermore Microsoft would have been free use their control of the client to leverage control of the server. Which they were already starting to do, and which they had done to very good effect against Novell earlier. Could they have succeeded? I sure wouldn't have wanted to bet against them!

Thus I think that Microsoft's blinking at the lawsuit in 1998 was more important for the success of open source on the web than their missing the web before 1995.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by astine on Friday October 16, 2009 @11:51PM (#886600)
Sun and SGI would still be in business as well.

Sun is still in business. They're just owned by another company now.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by ScottWhigham on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:55PM (#886151)
It stands the test of time - 33 years later, developers are still complaining about the same things. I found that rather amusing - so much has changed yet much is still the same.

If you believe anything out of the BSA, last year was a record year with more than $50 billion in software piracy: http://global.bsa.org/globalpiracy2008/index.html

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by nkassis on Friday October 16, 2009 @05:30PM (#886213)
I don't believe anything they say so... how much was really stolen?
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by dkeskar on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:47PM (#886143)
One ventures into a market hoping it would be profitable. It does not, so one tries to "train the customers".

That letter probably didn't increase sales.

But this guy and his company managed to hang around making revenues until they were approached as a partner by some large company that knew how to get customers to pay through their noses.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by thwarted on Friday October 16, 2009 @04:22PM (#886108)
The amount of royalties we have received from sales to hobbyists makes the time spent on Altair BASIC worth less than $2 an hour.

This was an early version "I did it, I should get paid for it" feeling of entitlement. If your intent is to make serious money, why would you spend your time doing something that ultimately paid only $2/hr? Why are you trying to sell to people who are unwilling or unable to pay for the product or service? These sound like an obvious recipe for failure. Fortunately for Microsoft, the deals they did that gave them a captive business audience who wanted to pay for DOS, as it became the defacto standard, this ranting was later moot.

And now Microsoft offers deep discounts and free stuff just to get you to use their products (for various business and marketing reasons).

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by Dilpil on Friday October 16, 2009 @11:19PM (#886575)
It is one thing to make a product no one wants and complain about making no money. Expressing dissapointment over not making money off of a product because it is universally stolen is a reasonable sentiment.
Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by thwarted on Saturday October 17, 2009 @12:31AM (#886639)
It's reasonable to complain. It's also reasonable, and I'd like to think expected, that if you created something that you can't get people to pay for, and they are stealing it, you'd get out of the business of providing that specific thing that can be stolen, or you invest in copy protection (which is a losing game anyway). Eventually Microsoft did get out of the business of trying to sell to hobbyists.

He acknowledges that it wasn't universally stolen: the income was approximately $2/hr. If it was universally stolen, the income would have been $0/hr. But what he was missing was that it was universally wanted, there was a demand for it. This means he didn't set a price that the market was willing or able to bear, and the market told him the price that it was willing to bear. One way to adjust prices in the face of piracy is to take the total income divided by the total number of users (this is an iterative process, because this might not be immediately measurable). Considering what people had to go through to obtain copies on the Altair (making copies of paper tapes), the price set ($500 for the standalone version according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists ; approx $1900 in 2009 dollars) was way too high considering the effort of copying. At some lower price point, the effort of copying is too much for the price set.

While it's nice to be able set whatever price you want and think you're going to get it, that isn't the case. And banking on being able to sell at some arbitrary price is folly. Because you'd be in the same situation if the people DIDN'T even bother to copy it in the first place, the only difference is that you get to complain that people are using it without paying.

Charging $500 for something that is in high demand and is easily copyable, well, that's a huge mistake. The market is telling you there is interest, but you're not meeting the buyers, so they subvert you. And while it's unfortunate that all this effort and money and time was expended up front and now the bill comes due for, setting the wrong price, which discourages sales and encourages piracy, is bad market research. And Microsoft changed in that regard too, for a long time now Microsoft has been known for its marketing juggernaut.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by lurkinggrue on Friday October 16, 2009 @06:25PM (#886305)
Didn't the hobbyists respond this way: LOL!

Not sure if I am remembering my history correctly.

Re:Bill Gates' Open Letter to Hobbyists by tomjen2 on Friday October 16, 2009 @05:34PM (#886220)
And now you can download the lastest version of basic directly from Microsoft completely legal. Oh well.