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Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by sillysaurus3 on Saturday January 03, 2015 @10:51PM (#8833217)
Why do people update OS X? Just curious. If it works how you like, why update it? Security flaws are probably the main reason, but isn't there a way to get those without acquiescing to an OS redesign?
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by overgard on Sunday January 04, 2015 @12:47AM (#8833526)
Because you have to: OSX doesn't have much of a culture of backwards compatibility, and every update tends to pressure developers into the latest greatest thing. Maintaining old software is just not a cultural value.

Once the developers move, the users pretty much have to. I have an iMac from 2009. I had two OS's on it. Windows 7? Everything still works there. Runs fast, new software is great, etc. OSX 10.6.8? DEAD. It's basically useless. I guess it's nice that apple offers free upgrades, except that they mysteriously make a system that used to be lightning fast extremely slow, even though other OS's seem to run just fine..

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by rsync on Sunday January 04, 2015 @01:52AM (#8833646)
I am running snow leopard on a 2009 mac pro.

It works perfectly. I have zero complaints or issues. It's no problem at all.

I use chrome and terminal for most of my work, but I do run itunes and vmware fusion and run some apps that give me a tiled interface and focus-follows-mouse.

No problems at all. I couldn't be happier.

I am sure it would all go to hell if I got a current model and tried to run SL on it ...

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by Kadin on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:17AM (#8833707)
Snow Leopard is no longer receiving security updates; that'd give me pause in anything but a very firewalled desktop installation.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by riffraff on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:31AM (#8833740)
I upgraded SL -> Mavericks a few months ago when it stopped receiving security updates.

It's slightly worse (I don't like mission control, messages is useless to me) but not as bad as Lion (i.e. you'll just need to disable the stupid scroll behaviour, but performance is good).

On the plus side, you get the option to use new software developed for "10.7+" (heroku's db client, atom editor, swift etc)

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by Kadin on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:04AM (#8833668)
Apple has a pretty vicious hardware/software upgrade treadmill.

I resisted updating 10.4 for years; IMO that was the high water mark for OS X, everything has basically been downhill from there. If I could still run 10.4 plus bugfixes and security updates, with modern software, I would.

But that's not possible. They push out new versions of the OS, along with new versions of development tools, which produce software that's not backwards-compatible past a certain point, such that eventually you can't run new software without installing major (0.1) updates. Apple's own products are the worst for this, but eventually you lose 3rd party apps as well.

Even if you resist the demands of new software, you'll eventually get forced to upgrade via hardware. Each generation of Apple hardware has a minimum OS version, keeping you from going back too far. For instance, Mac Pro "quad core" and 8-core systems won't run OS 10.4; Nehalem-based machines won't run 10.6. And Apple has purposely killed off its compatibility layers, dropping first the Classic environment and more recently Rosetta, in order to introduce barriers to running old software.

It's pretty frustrating as a user.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by threeseed on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:18AM (#8833713)
Classic/Rosetta were dropped during the moves to x86 and 64-bit. Given that almost all software was upgraded I can see why Apple didn't think the effort was worth it. And for all we know it could've been technically impossible.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by yourad_io on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:22PM (#8833301)
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I stuck with 10.6 until Linux. Took a look at anything past Lion... "nope!". I despised 10.8 enough to actually downgrade my 2012 MBP to 10.6.

But as for "why update" - up until 10.6, there were performance improvements as well as useful features (subjective -I know- fine).

As for "why update nowadays" - well, 10.6 isn't really supported nowadays. (cough Java 7 cough)

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by marssaxman on Monday January 05, 2015 @03:52PM (#8841068)
Yep, 10.6.8 was the best OS X ever, and I'd still be running it if I could.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by threeseed on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:21AM (#8833722)
Blame Oracle for Java 7 not working on older OS releases.

Apple stopped maintaining Java at version 6.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by bondolo on Sunday January 04, 2015 @03:23AM (#8833853)
Both were Apple's choice. Apple's Java 6 relied on proprietary interfaces that were not part of the contribution to OpenJDK. Oracle could not have even recreated the Java 6 MacOS port. The other big reason was that new MacOS versions were only x64 and going to the trouble of making a 32 bit port for only obsolete OSes was a non-starter.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by PhasmaFelis on Sunday January 04, 2015 @12:28AM (#8833475)
The reason--the only reason--I'm seriously considering upgrading from 10.6 is that new programs increasingly don't support it anymore. I download a simple little helper app and it says "The program requires OS X 10.8 or higher."

My best guess is that programmers build with the latest libraries, and the latest libraries require the latest OS version. If the dev is running on the latest version, it never crosses his mind to do otherwise.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by Kadin on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:33AM (#8833749)
I did the same thing recently, and I've hated it since. 10.7 removed Rosetta, broke "Save As", and annoyified the Save dialog.

But there were just too many pieces of software that wouldn't run, and unpatched security holes didn't seem like a good idea either.

To add insult to injury, Apple doesn't allow you to virtualize non-server versions of 10.6. You can, thankfully, hack VMWare Workstation and keep running your previous machine's image that way, but it's shitty that you have to jump through those hoops. It seems geared specifically towards keeping people from continuing to use their old apps.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by arthurfm on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:35AM (#8833753)
> If the dev is running on the latest version, it never crosses his mind to do otherwise.

New and/or updated frameworks/APIs [1] make the developer's job easier. Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of them?

[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/releasenotes/MacOSX/...

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by josh64 on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:04AM (#8833669)
I'd like to keep 10.6 support in the open source app I help out with but there are so many improvements in 10.7 and 10.8 from a developer point of view that the latest release will be the last to support 10.6 (and 32-bit macs). By improvements I mean genuine time saving features like base localisation, not "ooh shiny dot syntax!".
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by _delirium on Saturday January 03, 2015 @10:59PM (#8833240)
Until a version is EOL'd, sure, and that's what I've been doing. But 10.6 was EOL'd in late 2013, and by early 2014 at the latest it had unpatched major flaws, so I had to upgrade to 10.9.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by sillysaurus3 on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:10PM (#8833269)
So Windows has become more sane than OS X in terms of security updates?

EDIT: Windows 7 was released in 2009 and is still receiving security updates. 10.6 was released in 2011 and has been EOL'd. Seeing as both people still want to use these products, but one group is being forced not to, that's why I'm saying OS X is taking a less sane stance than Windows.

Is this false?

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by tedunangst on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:20PM (#8833296)
OS X upgrades are free, more like Windows Service Packs in a way. Microsoft also drops support for pre-SP versions of Windows after a time. The clock is ticking for Windows 8.0; you have to upgrade to 8.1.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by yourad_io on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:32PM (#8833333)
Free upgrades can still come at a cost.

Multi-monitor full-screen was broken from 10.7 through 10.8. Thousands complained, Apple claimed it a feature.

Not fixable, not tweakable, not reversible. 10.6 or one full-screen monitor at a time.

Fuck off, Apple.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by ridiculous_fish on Sunday January 04, 2015 @01:07AM (#8833564)
I worked on the full screen feature in 10.7 through 10.9!

Full screen in 10.7 and 10.8 did render secondary displays useless. But it was a new feature in 10.7, so there was nothing to reverse. You can't take Safari, Mail, etc. full screen in 10.6.

Perhaps there was an app you used that switched from a custom full screen implementation to the system one, and so regressed on secondary displays?

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by yourad_io on Sunday January 04, 2015 @01:45AM (#8833631)
VLC, iTerm (& Terminal? I think), Chrome, Firefox, ... Most things I used had some sort of full-screen mode that was then "hijacked" by 10.7's native full-screen mode. I say "hijacked" because even versions that were pre-Lion would somehow end up using the native "feature".

The thing to reverse would have been the "switch to new workspace when full-screening" - or at the very least make it optional. Certainly not respond "that's a feature" and close as "working as expected" when thousands complain.

I failed to see the value in that feature even with a single screen. An action that used to happen instantaneously now took 1-2s. and a dizzying sliding animation. (Many a flow was lost to toggling full-screen by accident - whereas previously you could toggle/toggle back immediately without losing your mental state - surely you appreciate that as a developer?).

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by ridiculous_fish on Sunday January 04, 2015 @03:07AM (#8833822)
Ok, I get it: you don't like how the system full screen integrates with workspaces, and you were peeved when other apps adopted it in place of their own implementations. Of course Apple did not "hijack" anything: full screen support has always been strictly opt-in. But apps would feel pressure to adopt the system implementation.

Full screen was an effort to make OS X more usable on small displays - recall that the 11" MacBook Air had just shipped. It didn't make much sense for media playback apps to adopt the system full screen mode, especially as it was in 10.7-8.

I would have loved to enable a system mode where full screen windows could coexist in the same workspace as unrelated windows, but this would have been a new feature, not something we could have achieved by reversing anything. And eventually Apple did enable a new mode, which was what shipped in 10.9.

Oh, and if you filed a bug, then whoever closed it as "working as expected" made a mistake. There was a (heavily duped) bug tracking the uselessness of secondary displays in FS, and it was closed when 10.9 shipped. I may even have been the one to close it, I don't remember.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by bronson on Wednesday January 07, 2015 @01:13AM (#8849165)
Of course Apple did not "hijack" anything: full screen support has always been strictly opt-in. But apps would feel pressure to adopt the system implementation.

This doesn't make much sense, does it? Obviously apps adopt the system implementation. The problem the OP is talking about is that the system implementation became pretty weird, broke some apps that used to work just fine (especially lots of xquartz ones), and thought that the best use for your extra monitors was to just display a dark gray pattern.

Personally, I learned to live with it (sigh, uncheck "displays have separate spaces"), but it does seem like a good example of Apple shoving a half-baked idea out the door.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by tolmasky on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:08AM (#8833677)
QuickTime and iTunes. I used to watch tv or a movie on one of my displays while coding on another. Instead I got to watch linen one screen while watching a movie (double whammy here because even showing pure black on the other screen would have been better since at least it wouldn't distract from the video).

I can't specifically recall, but I think the same was true of full screening video content from Safari (perhaps technically a "plugin feature", but maybe html5 video was around?), but QuickTime was 100% an apple regression.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by marssaxman on Monday January 05, 2015 @03:53PM (#8841077)
I have no idea how the full-screen mode is supposed to work or what it is supposed to be good for; I just know that every now and then I fat-finger something and accidentally invoke it, at which point whatever single window I happened to be using zooms to take over one of my monitors, while the other monitor turns grey and useless. I don't understand how this could ever be a useful feature.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by kordless on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:55PM (#8833390)
> Fuck off, Apple.

Log off, user.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by yourad_io on Sunday January 04, 2015 @12:37AM (#8833501)
I took it personally because my vendor condescendingly told me that the fact that I can't use my environment (multi-monitor) the way I wanted (full-screening applications) was actually a feature. Apple was telling me to STFU or GTFO.

So I did the latter :)

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by kordless on Sunday January 04, 2015 @03:51PM (#8835786)
All you can do is seek your own joy. Expecting others to do that for you is setting expectations. Not sure why I got the downvotes, but I'm happy you got free of OSX. I'm still hanging in there...for now.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by threeseed on Sunday January 04, 2015 @01:29AM (#8833607)
How was it broken ?

It worked exactly the same as before only Apple added full screen mode which didnt work in an ideal way. But guess what you don't have to use it. Just maximise your windows normally or use one of the many free tools to do it via keystrokes.

But yeh fuck Apple for offering free OS upgrades that are completely optional.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by sillysaurus3 on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:22PM (#8833302)
Windows 7 will be supported through 2020 according to http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

The updates are free.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by tedunangst on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:29PM (#8833322)
Did you read what I said about OS X upgrades being like Service Packs? Did you read your link?

> Support for Windows 7 RTM without service packs ended on April 9, 2013.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by sillysaurus3 on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:35PM (#8833344)
A service pack doesn't completely redesign how people interact with Windows, though. But OS X "service packs" tend to do just that. In fact, that was the author's frustration.

Seeing as OS X service packs also come out very frequently, whereas Windows are very rare, I'm not sure the two are comparable.

I should probably bow out now. I just thought it was interesting.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by ZoF on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:57PM (#8833396)
Bow out if you will, but I've agreed with everything you've said thus far and don't think you made any false/slanderous/etc statements.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by tedunangst on Sunday January 04, 2015 @12:06AM (#8833418)
I think the principle attribute that determines how long support lasts is the cost to get to the next supported version and not anything to do with feature differences. Apple made the decision to give away upgrades precisely so they could move people off old versions I suspect.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by Kadin on Sunday January 04, 2015 @02:09AM (#8833679)
They'd be like Service Packs if Service Packs broke backwards compatibility and changed core functionality of the OS, which they typically don't. They are not analogous.
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by hackinthebochs on Saturday January 03, 2015 @11:34PM (#8833340)
Is it meaningful to compare it to a service pack when there are significant changes such that they're driving users away?
Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by silviogutierrez on Sunday January 04, 2015 @12:06AM (#8833417)
I believe 10.6 was released in 2009, not in 2011[1]

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Snow_Leopard

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by hollerith on Sunday January 04, 2015 @12:04AM (#8833413)
>10.6 was released in 2011

Wikipedia says 10.6 was released August 28, 2009.

Re:Why I Quit OS X – Geoff Wozniak by jokoon on Sunday January 04, 2015 @01:02PM (#8835191)
xcode 5 requires you to update OSX