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Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by dalke on Friday December 19, 2014 @08:37AM (#8772135)
It would be nice to compare those numbers to that of other companies or organizations.

But even if you stay strictly with US companies, is it possible to find the compliance rate for Microsoft, Google, Twitter, Red Hat, etc., much less the various game studios known for overworking their employees?

Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by debacle on Friday December 19, 2014 @08:48AM (#8772171)
A 60 hour work week for wage laborers should not be baseline in any country in 2014. Apple is doing what they can to exploit these workers in a PC fashion.
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by rndn on Friday December 19, 2014 @08:56AM (#8772202)
* as any other company that outsources manufacturing.
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by debacle on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:01AM (#8772221)
So should we not also look down on those companies? Why do we give companies a pass to exploit workers because other companies do as well?
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by Retric on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:13AM (#8772256)
I don't know if a 60 hour work week counts as exploitation. If you options are 400$/month and 40 hour weeks or 600$ a month and 60 hour weeks a lot of people are going to chose the second option. IMO, when it comes to exploitation pay, working conditions, and irregular work schedules can be far more exploitive than simple hours worked.

Also, dorm style housing next to a factory dramatically cut down on commute times which changes the work life balance equation. It's much like a 50 hour work week with a 1 hour commute which is fairly common in the US.

PS: IMO the US trucking industry is probably more expletive than most Chinese factory's. The hours are often comparable but the risk of death is much higher. And the industry often increases peoples risk of death for just a little more profit.

Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by vidarh on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:25AM (#8772295)
> I don't know if a 60 hour work week counts as exploitation. If you options are 400$/month and 40 hour weeks or 600$ a month and 60 hour weeks a lot of people are going to chose the second option.

And that is why it is exploitation: They are in a position where they don't realistically have a choice, and hence don't realistically have power to negotiate higher salaries for more reasonable hours.

This is the basis for e.g. EU working time regulations that makes 60 hour work weeks illegal within the EU with few exceptions.

Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by lucaspiller on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:51AM (#8772414)
Bear in mind that the salary these workers get is probably less than half that. Last year, according to the Daily Mail (yeah...), they were being paid £180 ($300) per month [0]. The salary these workers get is a small percentage of the retail price of these devices, it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary and provide ethical working conditions.

[0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/Revealed-Ins...

Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by mcphage on Friday December 19, 2014 @10:04AM (#8772472)
> it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary

Well, Apple doesn't pay them any salary at all—they're not Apple employees.

Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by ghostDancer on Friday December 19, 2014 @01:48PM (#8773756)
Yes but they are deeply offended , if they're not their employees is not their problem, why feel offended? .
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by mcphage on Friday December 19, 2014 @03:27PM (#8774321)
I get offended by plenty of things outside my direct sphere of influence, that aren't my problem. Most of them, I can't do anything about. But it's still upsetting.
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by rndn on Friday December 19, 2014 @11:12AM (#8772811)
Of course, but naming only Apple is misleading.
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by Shivetya on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:05AM (#8772233)
however nothing should prevent workers from performing a 60 hour work week should they choose.
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by ceejayoz on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:12AM (#8772255)
The problem there is preventing coercion. I've heard a number of stories of people working at startups who get in trouble for "not being a team player" or "lacking dedication" because they don't want to work super-long hours.
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by vidarh on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:27AM (#8772305)
That'd be great assuming both sides held equal power.

Both sides don't hold equal power, which is the reason it took nearly a century of demonstrations, strikes and violent confrontations to get down from 60 hours+ work weeks to ~40 (EDIT: in the US and Europe)

Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by hawleyal on Friday December 19, 2014 @08:51AM (#8772182)
I think your argument equates to "Everyone else is doing it mom, why can't I?". It was as much bullshit when you were a kid as it is now.
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by dalke on Friday December 19, 2014 @11:34AM (#8772941)
My argument is as to how angry I should be specifically towards Apple, vs. towards the industry as a whole, the BBC, and us as people, and to inform my decisions on how to improve international working conditions. (Admittedly, that's low on my list.)

If Apple's claim is correct, and "no other company [does] as much as Apple does to ensure fair and safe working conditions, to discover and investigate problems, to fix and follow through when issues arise, and to provide transparency into the operations of our suppliers," then the solution is to push for a change to the laws.

If Apple's claim is completely inverted, and everyone else requires a maximum 40 hour work week with a livable wage, with 100% compliance, then it's time I boycott Apple.

On the third hand, if no one else can report any numbers like this, then attacking Apple for being the first to be transparent about these numbers means that other companies are less likely to publish, or even track, these numbers, because the tall poppies are cut down first. If so, then the BBC is making things worse by attacking Apple for being the only one to be so honest. (This is the one I happen to believe, but have little evidence for.)

On the fourth hand, if Apple is the middle of the pack, then certainly it could be an "Everyone else is doing it" arguments. Except that Apple highlights how they don't think they are in the middle of the pack, and stress why they think that, for example, working with the Indonesian tin mining industry is overall better than not sourcing Indonesian tin.

Of the alternatives, I don't see why you thought I was suggesting the one least supported by the evidence.

Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by TeMPOraL on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:00AM (#8772215)
Well, not really. http://xkcd.com/1170/
Re:Apple goes to war with the BBC by hawleyal on Friday December 19, 2014 @09:26AM (#8772302)
Is this reddit?