News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by Argorak on Monday December 01, 2014 @05:38PM (#8684441)
> I largely agree w/ the argument here, but "slow" is going to be self-defeating nomenclature, and is also inaccurate. Business doesn't want slow. So if we're pitching slow, we're setting ourselves up to lose and the speed-hackers are going to win.

German has a very nice word for that: "zügig". It means "speedy" as well, but goes a bit towards "stable", "steady" and "friction-free". It's the good kind of fast, which sometimes needs a step back and a look at things.

So, if I came to work "zügig", I didn't speed, but there was no traffic jam, I didn't stop for a coffee somewhere, etc.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by robert_tweed on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @02:38AM (#8686117)
I like this word, we should adopt it. It says a lot about the German mindset that they have a word for this.

I don't think English has any equivalent (but it's a big language so I wouldn't be surprised to find out I'm wrong). We do have a very similar and pretty common idiom though: "slowly-but-surely", often used in the phrase "slowly but surely wins the race". This of course comes from The Hare and the Tortoise in Aesop's Fables.

Another analogy that works in programming terms is comparing the speed of a container ship to the speed of a Ferrari. One of them zips about a lot and goes round corners really fast. The other one takes a while to load up and takes an hour to turn, but it will shift a hell of a lot more cargo, a much greater distance, in the same time.

There's a place for both and the most important thing is knowing the difference; not sticking to one or the other dogmatically.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by dennisgorelik on Friday December 05, 2014 @03:17AM (#8703421)
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by aerojoe23 on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @08:50AM (#8687012)
expeditious

Best I could fined.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by mr_luc on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @09:30AM (#8687224)
Expeditious is used rarely enough, and 'expedited' services are spoken of frequently enough, that I don't think that expeditious would at all capture the notion.

Things that are expedited are put on a 'fast track,' obstacles removed -- and, frequently, corners are cut.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by agumonkey on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @01:43AM (#8686014)
I like to tell that "vitesse" (noun), French for speed, comes from "viste" (adj.) and latin "vistus", rooted in vista, to see. The only way to go fast is to see, to know; and for that, one often needs to go slow.

As said below Latin has it in festina lente -- "Make haste slowly."

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by barking on Monday December 01, 2014 @07:11PM (#8684949)
Zügig is just so..Germanic! It's exactly how I imagine the stereotype of German efficiency. In the anglo-saxon world we pride ourselves on how many hours we work. In Germany they work fewer hours and produce more and of better quality. At least that's my impression.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by lavamantis on Monday December 01, 2014 @09:04PM (#8685289)
Germany has a few other words going for it to promote worker productivity, such as Mitbestimmung ("Industrial Democracy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_democracy)
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by lectrick on Monday December 01, 2014 @08:10PM (#8685131)
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by pluma on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @09:30AM (#8687223)
Before anybody else gets funny ideas: the claims in that article aren't entirely correct.

First of all, I find the claim about 35 hours being the average a bit dubious. It may have been the average some years ago, but today it's probably closer to 38-40 hours, with service jobs (from retail to agencies) often adding unpaid overtime to that. On the other hand our work laws are pretty employee-friendly (e.g. a mandatory uninterrupted resting period of 24 hours per week in case you have to work on sundays) and larger companies are more likely to follow the letter of the law.

The rules regarding Facebook and private e-mail have more to do with German privacy law: if the private use of work computers is explicitly forbidden, there are less legal landmines involved with intercepting or monitoring Internet use. In practice many places have an informal policy that allows these things, just not officially.

The bit about employees not hanging around after work is also inaccurate. For many people a lot of friendships (and relationships) involve co-workers. In fact, this is one of the reasons there was such an outrage when Walmart tried to implement its US work policies in Germany (which forbade romantic relationships between co-workers -- not that that rule would have held up in German courts to begin with).

There are indeed more days of paid vacation and families do receive preferential treatment when it comes to scheduling vacations during the major holidays or summer break.

The difference when it comes to "Handwerk" is also very striking. Mediocre pay (and rampant moonlighting) aside, craftsmen are generally held in high regard and like most professions take a lot of pride in correctness and precision. This probably again goes hand in hand with Germany having a lot of laws, rules and standards for various fields of work (e.g. you can't just set up a shop as a car varnisher, you need a formal qualification for that).

Also, bureaucracy. Although the sibling is right in that you do usually get the expected result if you follow all the rules, the paperwork can be daunting. Most people joke about the tax law in particular, but we have laws, rules and standards for everything. German law generally tends to define even edge cases clearly rather than leave them up to interpretation by the courts, consequently the legal system tends to be less shady than in the US, but trickier cases can still take years (but on the plus side, they are much cheaper than in the US).

Also, universal healthcare.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by bkeroack on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @11:06AM (#8687757)
That article reads like the inverse of the Japanese "salaryman" (company as family, patriarch, protector, provider of all material comforts), which is also sometimes fetishized in Western circles (in terms of results) as "more efficient" or somehow better than American working culture.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by rapind on Monday December 01, 2014 @11:07PM (#8685663)
I now love german culture. It's like finding my soulmate.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by jsilence on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @12:48AM (#8685901)
Please note that another german culture is to be overly pedantic in following rules, no matter if their initial intention applies or whether we just set them five minutes ago. Rules are followed because.

This culture makes administrative processes bulky and tedious and tiring.

It often fuels my Ungeduld, because I want to get st done zügig.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by moconnor on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @08:10AM (#8686852)
This is true; it's also true that Things Work here. Processes, equipment, social organizations.

To get your fishing permit you will need to provide all the right bits of paper and stamps, no exceptions.

The flip side of this is that if you follow a set of precise, unambiguous instructions you will get your fishing permit.

Source: moved from UK to Germany 8 years ago.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by Argorak on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @08:49AM (#8687007)
My favorite expat quote is: Germans have rules for everything, but with some though put into them, most of them are quite sane. ;)
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by Moru on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @03:46PM (#8689775)
Indeed. I needed some paperwork when I got married with a german. I'm from Sweden. I called the tax office in sweden that was taking care of the papers I needed to file for marriage certificate in Germany and the woman on the phone was laughing heartily saying "Then you know how byrocrazy feels!" :-) They happily sent all papers I needed in the mail to me in Germany, translated to English. The clerk in Germany was eying it suspiciously and asking some colleagues and took quite some time before finally putting down his stamp.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by lectrick on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @10:09AM (#8687439)
Sounds like an opportunity to convert all the paperwork to some kind of IT-powered workflow.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by jsilence on Wednesday December 03, 2014 @08:53AM (#8693695)
First you'd have to file all the neccessary application forms for a project like that. Good luck! ;-)

And even if you succeed, in the end there'd be a rule that requires the Pdf to be printed, signed, copied, filed, scanned and filed again, digitally.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by fit2rule on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @06:26AM (#8686609)
Yeah, just try living there.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by sdrothrock on Monday December 01, 2014 @09:43PM (#8685388)
Latin has it in festina lente -- "Make haste slowly."
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by ikurei on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @04:23AM (#8686341)
I've always loved the spanish saying "vísteme despacio que tengo prisa", "dress me slowly, I am in a hurry".
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by mattlutze on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @03:30AM (#8686237)
Fewer trips to the coffee pot, water cooler or smoker's lounge and a lot of the folks we know would be more productive, too.

A lot of the studies on it I've seen come down to "work time is for work, free time is for not working" and respecting that.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by vladd on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @03:19AM (#8686217)
"swift" might be a close translation.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by hibbelig on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @06:23AM (#8686605)
Yes, my English is less than perfect, but it sounds about right.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by aragot on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @03:41AM (#8686257)
"Zug" means "train", "-ig" makes it an adverb like "train-ly". Can a German speaker confirm please?

In English, I'd say a train has a fast & steady speed, therefore I propose the translation "steady".

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by janekm on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @05:22AM (#8686458)
I think zügig probably comes from the other, older meaning of Zug, "pull", "drag".
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by felxh on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @07:47AM (#8686795)
Zug does mean train but it comes from ziehen (to pull) as others mentioned. So I am not sure whether zügig comes from the original meaning or from 'train'. The english cognate for Zug/ziehen is tug btw (follows the common t -> z shift in german)
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by tempodox on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @03:53AM (#8686274)
Confirmed. I think, “steady” is a good rendering.
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by pluma on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @08:49AM (#8687002)
Not quite. "Steady" usually implies a certain slowness. "Zügig" generally implies the opposite.

For example, if I asked you to leave a hotel in a "zügig" manner, I would be asking you to quickly pack up your things and then leave. In other words, it's about doing something "faster than normal", but not so fast you can't take proper care.

If I told you to leave "zügig" and you'd first finish watching a TV show, I would probably be slightly irritated.

In this case "zügig" is better translated as "in a timely manner" (rather than with haste, which would imply dropping what you are doing and running away).

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by err4nt on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @11:27AM (#8687880)
In every explanation of the word 'zügig' here on HN, the word that pops into my head is 'directly'. Not sure how to make that work beside the word 'programming' but it matches the same concept.

It implies that you are following that one named goal and considering nothing else.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by bitwize on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @10:56AM (#8687694)
German has a very nice word for that: "zügig". It means "speedy" as well, but goes a bit towards "stable", "steady" and "friction-free". It's the good kind of fast, which sometimes needs a step back and a look at things.

We have a term for that as well -- cruising speed.

Re:The Case for Slow Programming by ep103 on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @10:16AM (#8687484)
This is pronounced like zoo Gig?
Re:The Case for Slow Programming by jdmichal on Tuesday December 02, 2014 @12:14PM (#8688215)
The IPA would be /tsygɪç/. Pseudo-English would be more like "tsoo-gish", though obviously not completely accurate.

You can enter it in Bing Translate[0] to get a text-to-speech rendition. I can't figure out how to make a direct link with text already entered. (You can type "zuegig" if you don't have easy access to the ü key.) Interestingly enough, the translation there is "swift".

[0] http://www.bing.com/translator/