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Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by zxcdw on Friday November 28, 2014 @08:30PM (#8672761)
Can someone TL;DR the problem with systemd?
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by gilgoomesh on Friday November 28, 2014 @08:52PM (#8672810)
systemd replaces a large number of startup and utility programs (specifically: sysvinit, pm-utils, inetd, acpid, syslog, watchdog, cron and atd). It also adds new daemons for logs, logins, locales, hostnames and a few other services.

Most of this is a good thing. Faster. Newer code that is easier to maintain. Less reliance on shell scripts favoring declarative config files instead.

But change has lots of difficulties.

The biggest resistance though is coming from people who are simply accustomed to the old approaches and don't see a problem with them.

But there are other objections from people who think systemd is too big in scope or too controlling or focussed on one technology or another or... some kind of conspiratorial trap or something (http://boycottsystemd.org). I think these arguments are a little hyperbolic since systemd isn't actually a single monolithic system and is really an overarching project to update a lot of major system utilities.

I'm personally more of a Mac user than Linux user. On the Mac, 10 years ago, launchd replaced many of the processes that systemd is now replacing in Linux. Particularly for things like cron and inetd (which were horrible to configure and work with) it was a huge improvement. However, the Mac never replaced as much all at once. It was a much gentler transition. In fact, discoveryd (which does a lot of what systemd's hostname daemon's are trying to do) was only introduced in the current Yosemite.

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by uselessdguy on Friday November 28, 2014 @09:10PM (#8672851)
This is a disingenuous presentation, though I would not expect any different from a systemd proponent, or opponent, for that matter. I wrote about the follies of systemd debates here: http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/

The speed benefits come at the trade-off of integration complexity potentially diminishing them: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations/

Whether or not it is easier to maintain cannot really be objectively gauged. As for declarative configuration, I will grant that. systemd is not the first to do this on Linux, though. eINIT was, though it used XML as its configuration language (similar to launchd and SMF in fact, though not as verbose). eINIT also had the benefit of a modular plugin-based architecture, a property also shared by finit and initng.

Change does not imply progress. This should go without saying.

No, a lot of objectors simply come from having different opinions on process management and general software architectures. That said, there is a contingent who did approve of the old approaches, yes. I dislike sysvinit, but I can understand them. Serial execution with a concretely defined boot sequence that is easy to reason about can be a benefit to some. In contrast, the systemd approach eschews any definition of "boot process" or "boot sequence" that can be specifically intervened in by order, instead taking the philosophy that specifying a unit's dependencies and relative order to a target/synchronization point is enough, the rest being handled by internal transaction and job semantics.

systemd most certainly is monolithic. It is also modular, but to a partial extent. System generators and various auxiliaries (journald, but also some of the more minor tooling) cannot be disabled at build time. Certain things like Plymouth communication are also explicitly done at runtime.

launchd as a whole is still a much smaller system than systemd, at the end of the day. This is because launchd has a concretely defined purpose. systemd has little in the way of that other than vague descriptions that ultimately amount to being "as much as possible between the kernel and base libs+utils".

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by gone35 on Friday November 28, 2014 @11:55PM (#8673109)
But there are other objections from people who think systemd is too big in scope or too controlling or focussed on one technology or another or... some kind of conspiratorial trap or something (http://boycottsystemd.org). I think these arguments are a little hyperbolic since systemd isn't actually a single monolithic system and is really an overarching project to update a lot of major system utilities.

Well, with roadmaps like this[1], one wonders if some of the criticism is really that hyperbolic or unjustified...

[1] http://0pointer.de/public/gnomeasia2014.pdf

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by digi_owl on Saturday November 29, 2014 @10:11AM (#8673894)
Sadly it drags the whole debate into an argument over semantics. Yes, it is not monolithic in the sense of one binary running everything. But at the same time everything ties back to systemd running as init.

This in effect makes everything under the systemd umbrella tightly coupled. Can i run journald on its own, or logind, or resolved, networkd? As long as the answer is no, they mays well be one big blob.

And it is presented as such as well from a source point of view.

http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/

There is no separate tarball for udev, journald, logind, or any of the other *d's that make up the systemd project.

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by the_why_of_y on Sunday November 30, 2014 @07:07AM (#8676632)
> As long as the answer is no, they mays well be one big blob.

So to you there is no difference between sendmail and postfix, they are both equally monolithic?

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by digi_owl on Sunday November 30, 2014 @08:24AM (#8676769)
If i just need a small portion but has to download and run more, then yes.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by cpncrunch on Friday November 28, 2014 @09:04PM (#8672836)
I haven't used systemd yet, but I'm concerned about having to learn a completely new way of doing things. I manage a number of servers, and it would be a huge inconvenience figuring out systemd. The old way works fine for me. Unfortunately most of the servers I work with are CentOS, and it seems Redhat has switched to systemd so I'm not entirely sure what I'll do in future. I guess now I have another option.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by GFK_of_xmaspast on Friday November 28, 2014 @09:27PM (#8672879)
"I'm concerned about having to learn a completely new way of doing things."

That's just a fact of life in this industry tho.

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by cpncrunch on Friday November 28, 2014 @09:31PM (#8672886)
Yes, of course. I occasionally learn a new language (or develop one), and I'm regularly using new APIs. However this completely changes everything about managing servers, for no compelling reason. It will create a large amount of hassle for no significant benefit.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by johnny22 on Friday November 28, 2014 @10:12PM (#8672954)
No compelling reason? you should probably read the docs a bit more. If you don't have any philosophical concerns with systemd, then you will find a lot to love there.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by cpncrunch on Friday November 28, 2014 @10:28PM (#8672987)
I just re-read some docs, and I still can't see any compelling reasons. I'm not concerned about booting a few seconds faster (I only reboot my servers once every year at most). Regarding memory footprint: that has never been an issue. Binary logfiles are a disadvantage to me.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by 4ydx on Saturday November 29, 2014 @12:44AM (#8673181)
Binary logs and the amount of new code which these developers are incorrectly assuming will be stable. It is a total disaster in my opinion. I fell in love with using Linux because everything is text files. Binary approaches will only make using linux more cryptic.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by ahomescu1 on Friday November 28, 2014 @11:11PM (#8673056)
> systemd replaces a large number of startup and utility programs (specifically: sysvinit, pm-utils, inetd, acpid, syslog, watchdog, cron and atd). It also adds new daemons for logs, logins, locales, hostnames and a few other services.

> But there are other objections from people who think systemd is too big in scope or too controlling or focussed on one technology or another or... some kind of conspiratorial trap or something (http://boycottsystemd.org). I think these arguments are a little hyperbolic since systemd isn't actually a single monolithic system and is really an overarching project to update a lot of major system utilities.

The problems start when those replacement system utilities become (more or less) tightly coupled, so if you want to change one of them (say, I want to use my own DHCP client) then you need to change all of them (and it's increasingly looking like you can't).

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by digi_owl on Saturday November 29, 2014 @10:16AM (#8673914)
More correctly, you can't just use networkd as your dhcp client unless you have systemd as init. You could however use dhcpcd on top of systemd (tho the latter would likely make a lot of noise about "missing functionality").

And that is the insidious nature of it all. the *d's panders developer laziness. What do you do when some production critical piece of code demands networkd, logind, or any of the systemd sub-daemons? Do you look to replace it, or do you roll over and replace whatever already functioning init you have with systemd?

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by digi_owl on Saturday November 29, 2014 @10:28AM (#8673950)
> Newer code that is easier to maintain.

It also brings "new" bugs.

http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q4/592

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by derekp7 on Friday November 28, 2014 @08:34PM (#8672772)
Many people complaining about it is that it doesn't follow the Unix philosophy. I think that it's not so much that systemd is un-UNIX like (after all, it could be argued that X-windows is un-UNIX like too). I think the problem that people are having with it is that it is a cathedral that is getting erected right in the middle of their bazaar. (personally, I don't mind systemd, but I also didn't mind SysV, or BSD init styles either).
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by marcosdumay on Friday November 28, 2014 @09:51PM (#8672917)
Also, it's a badly built cathedral, that most people see that will have problems in the future.

And it's being built by a group of people with a history of pushing badly built catedrals onto Linux, that turn into ruins even before completion, and have to be maintained because people get used to praying there.

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by digi_owl on Saturday November 29, 2014 @10:29AM (#8673957)
>it is a cathedral that is getting erected right in the middle of their bazaar.

That is a beautiful mental image.

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by ahomescu1 on Friday November 28, 2014 @08:50PM (#8672809)
In short: it's taking over Linux userspace. It's slowly leading us to a point where systemd will be "the Linux middleware", and all apps (above it) and the kernel itself (under it) will not work without systemd.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by mahouse on Friday November 28, 2014 @08:37PM (#8672782)
There are so many problems with it that it's not possible to tl;dr them. But Google will help you. There are so many posts flaming it (for good reasons) that it will be easy for you to understand everything.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by EdwardDiego on Friday November 28, 2014 @09:03PM (#8672831)
Could you recommend some? "Google it" is a non-answer.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by mahouse on Saturday November 29, 2014 @04:42AM (#8673466)
THis was probably the one that started it all: http://monolight.cc/2011/05/the-systemd-fallacy/

The "official" points by developers can be read in WP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Reception

Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by danellis on Friday November 28, 2014 @09:00PM (#8672824)
Can you give examples of the most important ones? Are there any that are technical rather than philosophical?
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by tangus on Friday November 28, 2014 @08:58PM (#8672817)
Some people don't like it per se, but mainly what they don't like is that it's going to be the only viable init system in Debian, since many maintainers don't have any intention to support the others.
Re:Don't panic and keep forking Debian by frozenport on Friday November 28, 2014 @10:47PM (#8673025)
50% of the problem is that all the old tutorials are broken

50% of the problem is that there is no appreciable advantage to me (as a Gentoo, XFCE user)