So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not?
That doesn't seem right, it would make sense that the coins are held in an escrow status until he was proven guilty.. It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.
It's not, and there has actually been a low-level national (US) dialog on the subject over the last month.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/10/363102433/pol...
Happens all the time. You can be driving along, get pulled over, and the cop claims the money in your wallet is the result of illegal activities (usually drug dealing), and takes it. You can get it back by winning the civil lawsuit that will get filed: "Hazzard County Sheriff's Office vs. $150"
Is this constitutional? Lots of people don't think so, but the cops believe it is.
http://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/dpr-bitcoins/order.pdf
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/06/john-oliver-civil-f...
Also this, an article mentioned in the show:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/st...
>So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not?
Yes goods are guilty until proven innocent in court.
>It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.
It kinda is. Watch the link.
Nevertheless, that's how it works in the land of the free.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/10/363102433/pol...
That's exactly what it is. It's truly terrible.
Civil forfeiture is often (though not always) used to clear up the legal status of assets found abandoned during a criminal investigation, eg if the DEA interrupts a drug bust and the buyers flee, leaving a few hundred thousand in cash behind. You could turn up to such a hearing and assert a legal claim to such assets along with an explanation of why they should not be forfeit, but if the assets are the proceeds of criminal activity then it's not worth it unless you have a truly outstanding cover story because you'd risk arrest or having the testimony at the hearing turn up in your criminal case.
IIRC in this case the feds got the bitcoin wallet information by seizing the Silk Road server, so they have a wholly reasonable presumption that the bitcoins are the assets of the (obviously illegal) drug brokerage business and probably a transaction log to back up this presumption.
Right has nothing to do with the law. Law is about what those with power can push through, it doesn't have anything to do with right and wrong.
While that may be beside the point, a rousing speech about how asset forfeiture should be changed would resonate more strongly if the subject was someone other than a person who hired people to murder others.
Also, it seems like supreme court justices aren't going to turn against asset forfeiture any time soon, so there's really no way to stop the practice.
EDIT: It's interesting how far people are twisting my words. I made two assertions: One, that there is no way Ulbrict obtained those coins legally, so if you want to reform asset forfeiture, choosing Ulbrict as your mascot would be a tactical mistake. Two, that unless you can convince the supreme court justices to turn against asset forfeiture, the practice will not change.
If you're reading into my words more than those two assertions, you're reading too far.
Not true at all. In fact the solution is infuriatingly obvious. Require a warrant for all civil forfeitures. The proponents say it's for taking down assets of cartels (and probably alleged purveyors of black markets like in this case) so warrant is easy to get. This would prevent cops rolling average citizens on routine traffic stops so they can finance margarita machines with "pennies from heaven".
A reform like this should be an easy bi-partisan sell to congress. If they can't do it at the Federal level any pol that campaigned as a libertarian or champion of small government should be pushing for this in state legislatures.
Ulbrict is being given due process. He is also being given a fair trial. My observation is simply that there's no logical way he could have earned 50,000 BTC except by being an early miner or by running Silkroad, and apparently he wasn't an early miner.
Why is that important? Because if you're trying to change asset forfeiture, choosing which case to fight and who to defend is extraordinarily important. Let's say that the supreme court decides to reevaluate asset forfeiture, and let's say you've chosen Ulbrict as the case for them to reevaluate. Why give them more reasons to say "Our finding is that asset forfeiture is a legal and valid practice, and should not change"? By choosing Ulbrict, you aren't helping your cause.
A verdict like that will settle the debate of asset forfeiture for decades to come, so why risk such a crucial outcome so whimsically?
I don't know how to make it any clearer, either you understand that having a lawful society requires following the law to the letter even if something is painfully obvious, or you don't.
Your rationalization appears to boil down to "the status quo is the status quo, so we shouldn't bother trying to change it."
Every single article that comes up about DPR or Silk Road, you post multiple comments prejudging literally every facet of the case. The quote above from you is a perfect example. Suppose for a minute that in addition to running the Silk Road, DPR also had a massive mining operation with multiple ASIC processors. Makes sense, right? His whole business was based on BTC - why in the world wouldn't he participate as a miner?
That is just one way that some or possibly all of the 50,000 coins at issue could have been obtained by DPR legally. Ya know, I hope you never get to find out what it's like to be accused of something because then you'll get to see what it feels like when people like you prejudge your guilt.
It's interesting how unapologetically ravenous people will be.
Also, if DPR was an early miner, then surely he would have said that by now.
http://www.popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/UlbrichtMa...
http://www.popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/UlbrichtCr...
You could make your case without statements like that.
Also, he is getting a fair trial.
Here's another explanation of it that's probably better than mine: https://www.contributoria.com/issue/2014-08/539b517ba588a791...