News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by andrewvc on Thursday October 23, 2014 @10:29PM (#8501860)
What I urge people in this thread to do is not to pick up a google search, or read a book, but to just go out and ask a few female friends what their thoughts are about being online, being safe, and being respected, and to listen with an open mind.

I see a lot of denial in here, people rooting around for reasons to think that there isn't a serious fucking problem with intimidation and psychological violence taking place on the net. I see a lot of cognitive dissonance, and that's sad, that's not a scientific mindset. You all need to get out of your comfort zone.

I'm a straight white male software developer, I don't need to care about this for any reason other than a life that doesn't have truth and fairness as a cause isn't worth living. I encourage you all to calm down, reach out, and really understand what it's like on the other side.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by ddingus on Friday October 24, 2014 @02:55AM (#8502421)
Well said.

We have a similar dialog going on among the power users at Quora. The trouble women were having really escalated when the first influx of general users showed up.

It got to the point where many of them were going to leave.

All of us had a discussion, and Quora had a discussion in private with the women.

The ban hammer came down on a surprisingly large number of users. And it still comes down.

Most of us men, who participated in this, got to understand a lot. Due to the nature of that site, and that we have real life meetup events, many women felt it OK to just share with us, no filters.

And I was stunned. Thought I had some idea, and just didn't. Of course, now I do.

Honestly, that these stronger women were able to experience that, share it with others including men and continue on in seemingly normal ways is kind of amazing to me.

If more people were able to have these kinds of conversations, I suspect social norms would start to shift quickly, as would actions to remedy the problem.

Not that we don't have actions now. We do. People are supporting others who need it and we are beginning to speak out more and discuss it more.

But that ban hammer session was notable. A lot of the community got the message right away.

[dead]
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by JulianMorrison on Thursday October 23, 2014 @10:59PM (#8501937)
One every 50 days is

1) The absolute, lowest, background radiation level, of men hassling women.

2) Even despite that, demonstrably worse that what men get.

This is not the norm. This is what's still left when the volume of a woman's public presence is dialled down to infinitesimal above zero. Normal is way worse.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by verroq on Friday October 24, 2014 @01:22AM (#8502255)
I feel this test needs more controls.

Kongregate most caters to the flash gaming, 12 year old male audience. To draw anything about online "culture" is hardly representative.

[dead]
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by silencio on Thursday October 23, 2014 @11:28PM (#8502006)
I get recruiter spam and harassment alike. How's that for fun?

There is no way they're on the same level. The worst recruiter I've had to handle is way easier than the tamest of harassers. It's not about frequency in the slightest.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by crassus2 on Friday October 24, 2014 @03:01AM (#8502439)
I just want to say that I'm deeply uncomfortable with how quickly hacker news mods have moved to kill comments they disagree with since the new "professional" management came in. Is yummyfajitas hell-banned now? He had nearly 7 years of history. All his comments here are dead-ed.

For the record, this is what the grandparent said that got him hell-banned:

"According to the article, the author received one unwanted message every 50 days. How is it "cognitive dissonance" or "denial" to describe pressing delete every 50 days as a minor problem?

Note that in a typical 2 week period, I probably get more than 36 recruiter spams. Could you concretely explain what you feel is being denied?"

You might disagree with it, but it's hard to see how it is beyond the pale of polite discourse.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by dang on Friday October 24, 2014 @04:05AM (#8502592)
We haven't done any of those things. No moderator touched any of those comments, let alone killed them. Also, "professional" management? Ugh.

It's difficult for me take your "deeply uncomfortable" seriously when you haven't taken any trouble to find out whether what you're saying is true. It's not like it's hard.

Edit: Also, it's disingenuous to quote that out of context to make it seem like comparing sexual harrassment to recruiter spam is completely innocuous, when everybody, including the person making that comparison, knows damn well how provocative it is.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by yummyfajitas on Friday October 24, 2014 @05:42AM (#8502869)
Of course I know I'm being provocative. I'm intellectually questioning an emotional conclusion. Back in the day, HN was a good place for that.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by crassus2 on Friday October 24, 2014 @04:28AM (#8502662)
I disagree with the tone with which yummyfajitas is discussing this, but I absolutely think he should have the right to voice his opinion. Aren't downvotes punishment enough? I wonder if he had been more cautious in his phrasing if his comments would still be dead-ed for picking the "wrong" side of an issue.

I see the direction that hacker news is going. Whether by mod or by algorithm, it ain't pretty.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by dang on Friday October 24, 2014 @04:37AM (#8502694)
You've created a long series of accounts to do serial ideological trolling on Hacker News over the years [1], that in turn have gotten serially banned for a long time. There's no change in policy or direction here—nor in your practice of keeping your main account studiously separate from the ones with which you stir up shit. That is not using this site in good faith. None of this is the least bit new—you're simply relying on the fact that the fair-minded users of Hacker News don't have access to all the data.

In the latest episode—this one—we learn that you're adding concern trolling to your repertoire. Your mention in another context of how this terribly-concerning "new direction" that HN is taking would never have happened under the author of "What You Can't Say" is especially rich, given that PG would have (and, as I recall, did) ban your ass hands down the fastest of any of us. It's I who have consistently been the moderator most hesitant to do that (Exhibit A, the present discussion), oh and I've been doing this job for years already, so maybe find something else to "concern" about?

You really got me with the "professional management" though.

1. Anyone with showdead turned on who'd like a glimpse of what I mean by "serial ideological trolling" is invited to peruse this eugenicist tidbit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7447575. There's a lot more where that came from.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by andrewvc on Thursday October 23, 2014 @10:49PM (#8501909)
So you're seriously equating getting an unwanted job offer with a threat of sexual violence? What?
[dead]
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by timmclean on Thursday October 23, 2014 @11:13PM (#8501973)
The psychological impact of "I'll drink your blood out of your c--- after I rip it open" [1] is very different from that of recruiter spam.

[1] https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by gohrt on Friday October 24, 2014 @12:47AM (#8502193)
Wow, Twitter allows this content on their network?
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by meowface on Friday October 24, 2014 @01:53AM (#8502310)
Obviously not. The account was deleted and banned shortly after the tweets were made. Note that that screenshot was taken about 3 minutes after the account was created.

It's basically just Internet trolls registering Twitter accounts behind proxies and saying the edgiest things they can think of to stir the pot.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by JulianMorrison on Friday October 24, 2014 @06:35AM (#8502983)
"It's just trolls" is a mixture of monstering (it's them not us) and trivializing.

This is misogynist male supremacist terrorism. Twittering threats of violent sexual assault is like phoning in bomb threats - even if you don't have any explosives, the communication itself is an attack.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by undersuit on Friday October 24, 2014 @01:08PM (#8504676)
Don't call it terrorism. We don't give time to terrorists, ignoring them is the best solution; giving them more attention, yelling loudly for them to stop, and attacking them in retaliation are what terrorists want you to do.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by judk on Friday October 24, 2014 @11:15AM (#8504083)
Perhaps Twitter needs a probationary period for new accounts from suspicious IP blocks, and some content moderation at that time.

High profile accounts could opt in to this moderation for tweets that @them or DM them.or whatever.

[dead]
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by aptwebapps on Thursday October 23, 2014 @11:31PM (#8502015)
"its all in the mind of the receiver (aka psychological)"

Two points:

1) Except when it isn't. 2) Isn't that enough? What are we, robots? It's true that some people might be able to treat the two things the same and not be affected, but they're a tiny minority. Harm is harm, even if you think that everyone should have thicker skin.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by Natsu on Friday October 24, 2014 @02:17AM (#8502353)
@yummyfajitas - it appears that all of your posts are dead right now. I'm not clear if you've been banned after many downvotes or what, but the last several posts are all dead now.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by dang on Friday October 24, 2014 @02:40AM (#8502394)
Yummyfajitas isn't banned. Some of his comments are being flagged by users.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by Natsu on Friday October 24, 2014 @10:47PM (#8507023)
I just noticed that I now see [flagkilled] instead of [dead] some places. Is that new? And if so, I'm guessing it was not applied retroactively?

Just curious, because it looks like you're trying to be more transparent and I applaud that.

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by dang on Saturday October 25, 2014 @01:50AM (#8507338)
Yes, it's a week or so old and means that user flags killed a story or comment.

I don't understand your question about retroactiveness; can you explain?

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by waterlesscloud on Saturday October 25, 2014 @03:01AM (#8507460)
Has there been a change to the number of downvotes needed to make a post "dead"? I've had showdead on forever, and it feels like I'm seeing many more posts that have been deaded by voting alone.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by Natsu on Saturday October 25, 2014 @02:14AM (#8507375)
Essentially I'm asking if it applies to all posts or only posts after the feature was added.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by Natsu on Friday October 24, 2014 @02:45AM (#8502405)
Thanks for clarifying. I was wondering if he'd tripped something automatic.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by timmclean on Thursday October 23, 2014 @11:28PM (#8502009)
The implication that psychological damage is not "real" damage is false.
[dead]
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by wismer on Thursday October 23, 2014 @11:52PM (#8502070)
A racist man says: "I'm not racist; I have black friends." Do you see what's wrong with that statement?
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by ANTSANTS on Friday October 24, 2014 @12:33AM (#8502157)
Another racist man says "hey black person, your opinions are invalid because you've internalized racism. Please, let me, a liberal white man, speak for you."
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by JulianMorrison on Friday October 24, 2014 @06:28AM (#8502972)
What you fail to see, implied under your comment, is that in any situation where it's up to the white people to decide who's the Uncle Tom, that fact itself is racism, in the metagame of the discussion itself, staring you in the face.
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by chillingeffect on Friday October 24, 2014 @11:36AM (#8504167)
Actually you and the parent are saying the same thing:

White people determining what constitutes white privilege leads to white people conveniently missing their own blind spots.

Similarly: How come we see requests for devs to go out and ask females what their experiences and comfort are on online, but we don't the same for blacks and Muslims* ?

Originally, third wave feminism addressed this, pointing out addressing only female inequalities was unfair, but they've been getingt shouted down over the last decade.

Black people are receiving tons of death threats, at least one of them followed up by an actual death [3]:

[1] http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/dr-phillip-goudeaux-sacrame...

[2] http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/black_hillary_support...

[3] http://withintheblackcommunity.blogspot.com/2013/01/blax-new...

[4] http://aapov.blogspot.com/2010/07/freepointes-african-americ...

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by misogynoodles on Friday October 24, 2014 @01:23AM (#8502257)
Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by towaway5098 on Friday October 24, 2014 @12:07AM (#8502101)
A Strawman? Guilty by association? Why don't you explain how that's not demeaning to thousands of people using #NotYourShield, who disagree?

"I'm not racist; I have black friends."

So you assume I'm white and doing this? That's an incredible assumption when you don't know anything about me personally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqBdCmDR0M

Re:A Natural A/B Test of Harassment by wismer on Friday October 24, 2014 @12:23AM (#8502140)
Wow. Ok, I was afraid that this copypasta account was going to bring up "slam-dunk" fallacies to bring me to shame, however woefully misunderstood.

Let me spell it out for you - Just because some women happen to identify with the GooberGater movement doesn't mean that GooberGate is not, at the very LEAST, misogynistic in tone. If you can't understand that then there's nothing that anyone here can do for you.

Go back to /r/KotakuInAction. And tell the moderators there that they may want to drop their association with /r/dickgirls and /r/breakfemanazis