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Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @10:37AM (#8394663)
I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting.

American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me"

European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements

Germany could not have produced Facebook. But they have a great train network. France puts satellites on orbit and does the TGV.

In the US you have millionaires came out of "nothing" (of course, from nice universities, nice contacts, etc), people jumping at opportunities, while in Europe this would take 2 meetings, 3 viability studies and 4 months.

So, while I'm more towards in favour of the European model someone has to ask themselves what are they missing. Yes, they have a very nice and educated workforce that will be ready to work and be very productive at a big company where they will work hard, sure, but will come out with the least amount of new ideas (that's not their job), and will do the things most likely to be accepted by the majority.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by flexie on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:07AM (#8394986)
If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language. User content on facebook is mainly a written language thing, and it would have been hard spreading a website with mostly German content to English since so few Americans and brits speak German. On the other hand, most young Europeans speak English so Facebook had little trouble spreading from American universities to Europeans.

Skype started in Europe (Swedish/Danish co-founders, Estonian devs, offices in London, company in Luxembourg). No "committe/government/consensus" there.

Also, Apple and Google are examples of American companies that started with public funding.

Finally, many European countries rank higher than the US when it comes to social mobility. Don't most European know several millionaires who "came out of nothing" (or at least from a quiet European middle class background)? I think so.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by petercooper on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @03:19PM (#8397024)
The English speak English, and I can't think of any serious socially-oriented sites that are popular across the English speaking world that were born in the UK except for last.fm which was mostly a music tracking service than a social area. I'd be interested if anyone can bring any up though, but I'm kinda surprised nothing like a British version of Reddit ever took the Internet by storm.. everyone I know here just uses all the American sites.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by ctdonath on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:54PM (#8395928)
Apple didn't start with public funding. It was a hobby for a couple guys who sold their homemade computers at a club.

Don't confuse the fact that, during startup, a business used available public funding as just another available opportunity to leverage, vs a business that never would have started/survived without public funding.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by flexie on Thursday October 02, 2014 @09:41AM (#8400654)
Yes they did receive government funding from early on.

Apple received early stage funding from the SBIC programme: http://www.sbia.org/?page=sbic_program_history

And, more importantly, many of the technologies used by Apple right from the first computers to the iphones were developed with government funding and used free of charge: http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2013/10/24/t-iphone-go...

And I am not even talking about the later government subsidies from American states and from Ireland in the form of massive tax breaks. Nokia didn't get away with paying a 2 percent tax on its European profits (but probably received other government funding themselves along the way).

Similarly, the Google founders' work on the pagerank algorithms on Stanford was funded by a government entity, the National Science Foundation, and they were allowed to use it commercially free of charge. And Google too, has received massive tax breaks.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by ctdonath on Thursday October 02, 2014 @10:09AM (#8400770)
Again: don't confuse use of available options including gov't funding, with likely failure if gov't funding wasn't available.

The Steves were highly motivated; lack of government funding likely would not have stopped Apple from existing much as we know it now.

Just because a party was involved doesn't make 'em indispensable.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:46AM (#8395350)
> If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language

No. Most Germans don't even care for FB (or twitter). Or they use it with a limited purpose. They think it's silly.

Skype is a nice example, but is one of fewer companies like that.

> Apple and Google are examples of American companies that started with public funding

Are you sure? A lot of SV companies have had public funding but I'm not sure about them.

"Don't most European know several millionaires who "came out of nothing""

Well, this happens pretty much everywhere, even in 3rd world countries (sure, in a much smaller quantity). Social mobility is important, but a comfortable life in a comfy job may also be a prison (better than going through difficulties, sure)

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by Quanttek on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @05:32PM (#8397896)
> No. Most Germans don't even care for FB (or twitter). Or they use it with a limited purpose. They think it's silly.

Not really, atleast from my experiences. Almost the complete youth & young adults atleast use Facebook and a considerable amount Twitter (more Twitter user, the older they get). Older adults and eldery only use FB/Twitter partially (I'd say 20%) and realtively inactive

Though, yes, in Germany - on average - Facebook & Twitter are less used, mostly because of privacy reasons

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by thejdude on Thursday October 02, 2014 @02:02AM (#8399589)
IME very many German people are on FB (but yes, many also aren't, because they don't care and have their circle of offline friends). Twitter, almost nobody.

Among younger (20-30) Germans, I think almost everybody is on FB (and even more are on What's App).

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Thursday October 02, 2014 @08:38AM (#8400476)
Being on FB (usually with a false name) does not mean that they would have created it as it is
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by thejdude on Saturday October 04, 2014 @03:50PM (#8410431)
I never said they would.

But for a while Germany had StudiVZ and MeinVZ. After a while FB became more popular, people with some international friends joined at first, and after a while everyone else did and the other networks basically starved. It was sad to watch, especially since many (local) groups there and parts of the UI were IMHO much nicer than what's on FB today.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by wffurr on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:37AM (#8395280)
That's not the American model–it's the American myth.

You're leaving out the parts where Americans are enslaved to their corporate jobs through employer-provided healthcare, lack of unions, and a weak safety net. Combine that with regulatory capture by corporations, extreme concentration of wealth, and legalized bribery of legislators, and now you've got the American model.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by melling on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @10:48AM (#8394790)
Building a high-speed rail network has nothing to do with our "model". It's 50 year old technology with commercial use before man first set foot on the moon.

There are a dozen countries with it. Spain, for example, has a few thousand miles.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-speed_rail_lines

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:06AM (#8394979)
I'm not talking about the technology, I'm talking about the implementation.

Doing this requires a lot of collective work: investment, property acquisition or licensing, railway building, etc

This requires collective vision and goals

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:45PM (#8395848)
US population density: 34/km^2

Germany population density: 226/km^2

The Northeast US has a fairly good railway system despite it having a lot of legacy constraints not around in Germany. Most of the rest of the US is far to sprawling for railways to be effective.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by melling on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @01:09PM (#8396028)
YES, this has been discussed a million times before. Please don't waste our time discussing the population density of the entire US. It's irrelevant.

Can you give us the population density of Southern California vs Spain, for example?

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @02:31PM (#8396668)
It doesn't matter since Southern California isn't a political unit. Any significant rail improvements would require state and federal funding to be feasible.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by melling on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @02:46PM (#8396773)
First you use the argument that the entire United States is not as densely populated as Germany, which I pointed out is flawed. Now, you're trying some political tangent. First, we should agree that it is worth, or not worth, being built on technical merits then we can discuss the politics that follow. Jumping around in a scattershot discussion is not effective, unless your goal is to derail the conversation. Pun intended...
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @06:14PM (#8398140)
I thought we were discussing why Germany has better passenger rail infrastructure, not whether there are technical merits for building it.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by undergroundhero on Thursday October 02, 2014 @12:02PM (#8401290)
You were, he's looking for an argument.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @01:02PM (#8395991)
See the average speed of Acela trains (time vs distance) compared with TGV/Thalys/ICE

And don't you think Germany has more legacy constraints with a higher density and older tracks?

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @02:41PM (#8396734)
Acela trains share track with freight, TGV and ICE certainly don't. This includes the requirement for safe collision with a freight train, which adds a lot of weight.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by welterde on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @08:21PM (#8398713)
The ICE shares tracks with freight trains as well. Only the TGV has completely dedicated tracks afaik.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by aidenn0 on Thursday October 02, 2014 @03:09PM (#8402467)
Thanks for the correction; ICE trainsets are still way lighter right?
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by welterde on Thursday October 02, 2014 @05:55PM (#8403314)
Depends.. ICE1 trainsets appear to be slightly heavier than the Acela, whereas the newer ones are lighter. But that seems to be mainly due to having no dedicated power cars (ICE1 and the Acela Express do have power cars).
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by acadien on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @10:51AM (#8394827)
That's a pretty sweeping statement. Education impacts all things, voting, social norms, behavior, social sentiment... all of which impact how politicians act. In addition the politicians themselves go through the public education system.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by rbehrends on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:38AM (#8395294)
> Germany could not have produced Facebook.

"Could not" is a bit strong. "Unlikely" I'd agree with.

But my rationale is different: German businesses traditionally have a strong bias towards B2B models (esp. the "Mittelstand") and startups eschew consumer-facing business models. For example, America has Microsoft, Germany has SAP.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by colordrops on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:28AM (#8395204)
I'm not so sure that Facebook is the best example. It's not clear whether its existence has made a positive mark on the world or a negative one.

Also, Linux was created in another socialized state, Finland. I would argue that the impact of Linux is at least an order of magnitude more profound than Facebook.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by walterbell on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:34AM (#8395259)
Another example, Tim Berners-Lee and the WWW.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:54AM (#8395412)
WWW is actually 3 things: URL/URI + HTTP + HTML ;) Created based on the preceding ideas like Gopher, telnet, etc and some others as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_%28protocol%29

"On 30 April 1993, CERN announced that the World Wide Web would be free to anyone, with no fees due.[24] Coming two months after the announcement that the server implementation of the Gopher protocol was no longer free to use, this produced a rapid shift away from Gopher and towards the Web. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web

Btw, I'm not disagreeing with you, the European idea of making things for "everybody" got into play there.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by dalke on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @02:33PM (#8396688)
Nor am I disagreeing. Only pointing out that Linux was also created based on preceding ideas like Unix, MINIX, etc., themselves based on even earlier ideas ... just like HTML comes out of SGML, and has its own long history.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:48AM (#8395369)
Well, Linux started with Minix, and of course, after its (initial) creation it had a lot of input from everywhere.

I agree it's a more "European" model of development, sure.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by ginko on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @02:35PM (#8396702)
>Well, Linux started with Minix

which Andrew Tanenbaum created at Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by PythonicAlpha on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:32PM (#8395733)
I don't see the connection here.

  In the US you have millionaires came out of "nothing" (of course, from nice universities, nice contacts, etc), people jumping at opportunities, while in Europe this would take 2 meetings, 3 viability studies and 4 months.

That is a really narrow view and a myth that is just not applicable to the majority of people.

Besides extreme things like Facebook, most people of the US are stick to their destiny. If you can't afford to attend an university, you have not much more chance to rise out of the dust in the US than in Europe. Those that succeed are very few. Of course those are presented everywhere, to prove the US dream.

People like Bill Gates never came from poor destiny. Gates parents already where rich. The rich in the US also provide, that people from lower classes don't enter theirs. You have to have visited the right university (costly!) or you have to have the right parents to get the well paid jobs -- or both of course.

Of course, the possibilities in some sectors like IT are better and when you have ideas, you can easier get some money. Also when you loose, you get easier a second chance ... but all that has nothing to do with the education system and even less with university fees.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:49PM (#8395886)
You didn't read anything from the '(' on where I mean exactly what you explained.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by PythonicAlpha on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @03:05PM (#8396914)
Possible. It was a little short in my opinion and the reader could get the impression, that the US model is superior, because so much "wonders" are coming from it. But the wonders do not have anything to do with the education system, in my opinion.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by psychometry on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @10:48AM (#8394794)
Why do those philosophies have to be mutually exclusive? Can't you apply principles of social welfare to the public sector while allowing entrepreneurship in the private sector?
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:11AM (#8395028)
They don't have to be. But it's complicated.

And sure, entrepreneurship is allowed, but then you'll have to convince your family of why are you not getting a nice job as a government clerk or something.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by psychometry on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:44AM (#8395337)
One barrier to entrepreneurship in the U.S. is lack of health benefits when you're self-employed. There's not much of a social safety net here compared to most of Europe. Thus, one would think that Europe would actually be a better place to quit your job and pursue some startup idea. Why isn't that the case?
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by zanny on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:39AM (#8395302)
If you can get investors backing you, you really don't need to care what your family says.

It is just as cultural in the US that many families are affronted by their children or relatives that choose to try entrepreneurship over employment.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by ahomescu1 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @04:04PM (#8397328)
> Why do those philosophies have to be mutually exclusive? Can't you apply principles of social welfare to the public sector while allowing entrepreneurship in the private sector?

Because they compete for capital. The former requires high taxes, which leave a lot less private capital for investment and entrepreneurship. For example, imagine if the government had taxed away 90% of Elon Musk's fortune.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by bratsche on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:05AM (#8394961)
Even if what you're saying is true (which I'm a little skeptical of), what provides more value to people? Facebook or free education?
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by penprog on Thursday October 02, 2014 @04:17PM (#8402857)
At first glance this question seems easy to answer but on a second thought I could see how someone could argue that Facebook provides more value.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by pessimizer on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:04AM (#8394950)
Germany could have produced facebook.

edit: maybe better framed as a question - why do you think that Germany could not have produced facebook?

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @01:56PM (#8396411)
Simple answer: because they think it's silly (or think it's too much of a privacy violation)

Germans are "very serious" even when they're having fun.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by smm2000 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:17AM (#8395086)
Germany has not so far produced a single website or app that is hugely popular internationally. It does not mean it could not - it certainly have educated population to do it but the fact is it has not.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by janmonschke on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:29AM (#8395214)
You obviously haven't heard of SoundCloud then ;) (founders are Swedes but company is based in Berlin)
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by smm2000 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:10PM (#8395551)
Good point, I did not know about SoundCloud.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by sucramb on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:25AM (#8395168)
Zalando made their IPO just yesterday. $768M collected and $6.8B market cap.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by smm2000 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:09PM (#8395542)
Zalando is European company with very few sales outside of EU.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:08AM (#8394995)
Speaking as a born-and-bred American, America did not produce Facebook. Its content is mostly user-created: the world created Facebook.

If we want to talk about specific public policies conducive to the formation of web start-ups, California created Facebook by refusing to enforce noncompete agreements -- building an environment in which "Take this job and shove it! I'll start my own company!" can't be met with "You'll never work in this industry again!"

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by raverbashing on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:53PM (#8395913)
True. Yeah, the part about California is important. Or maybe even "The Silicon Valley" produced it.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by ionised on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @10:44AM (#8394743)
The way you describe it makes the EU system sound preferable.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by bharath28 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:01AM (#8394919)
This. And that somehow a viable combination of the two approaches can't be built.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by Kurtz79 on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @11:53AM (#8395406)
Your analysis is very black and white, and reality is probably more nuanced, but I generally agree that Europeans tend to be more risk averse than Americans.

It is also true that something as "simple" as starting your own company or working as a freelancer it often involves a lot of paperwork and upfront costs, which discourages a lot of people.

Still, I believe things are changing (in some countries faster than others), at least on this account.

Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by dozenal on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @12:33PM (#8395744)
We used German scientists to develop our nuclear weapons and the space program. That must count for something.
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by spydum on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @10:47AM (#8394782)
that is one of the great part of being human: diversity of thought. it's a shame most people are convinced that they are "right", and assume there can only be one right model. Leads to people trying to establish these monocultures, which usually fail (over time).
Re:Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn by transpy on Wednesday October 01, 2014 @01:37PM (#8396256)
Excellent points! Food for thought