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Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by inopinatus on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:02PM (#8140793)
No. That would be discriminatory.

Here's why: life expectancy matters.

An author exploits their copyright by assigning rights and options under it. The price is based on the discounted future cashflows possible from the licensing project in question. If the scope of "future" is limited solely to the lifetime of the author, then the socioeconomic inequities that cause, say, race to be a significant factor in life expectancy will be directly responsible for enforcing that distinction further.

Or more simply, it causes the same novel written by a rich young white man to receive a better licensing deal than if it were written by a poor old black man.

This may of course already be the case, but any such rule would exacerbate matters. Today, that extra 70 year buffer helps at least to throw the present-value discounting beyond the foreseeable future.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by Crito on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @10:46AM (#8142702)
This is flat out absurd. By your logic, any aspect of society which benefits those which live longer, which is nearly every aspect of society, is discriminatory.

Those with leukemia will tend to experience less of life than those without; does that mean that society is discriminating against those with leukemia? No; it means that leukemia is a bitch. Society is not at fault there, leukemia is.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by dredmorbius on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:32AM (#8141448)
Nice rhetoric.

Unfortunately, the future value of a 70 year income stream is effectively nil.

You can look at this in terms of the present values of annuities or perpetuities. In the case of a perpetuity (a constant income stream forever), the present value is expressed as: C/r

Where C is the period cash flow, and r is the nominal rate of interest expressed as a decimal fraction, e.g., a 5% interest rate is given as 0.05.

The value for any period of the perpetuity is C/(1+r)^n

Where n is the period.

Assuming a $1000 constant payment stream, the present value of the 70th payment is only $32.86. Double that and you're down to $1.08 as present value of a $1000 future payment.

At 14 years, you're seeing $505 in present value, at 28 years, $255.

This is sensitive to the interest (discount) rate, where the present value falls as interest rises. A 10% nominal interest rate gives you a $263 value for 14 years, $69 at 28, $1.27 at 70, and $0.001 at 140 years. At a 2% interest rate, the values are $758, $574, $250, and $62, respectively.

So while your argument does make a case for a fixed term of copyright, it doesn't pass muster for an extensive duration. Nor, more compellingly, does it allow for the retroactive extension of copyright duration as has been the case for the Doyle estate. Sir Arthur didn't write his works, published between 1887 and 1927, with any reasonable expectation that his heirs or corporate designates would be continuing to profit by them in 2014.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/perpetuity.asp

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by mrow84 on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @08:32AM (#8142099)
I interpret your final paragraph as suggesting that copyright should be of short fixed terms, for some meaning of 'short'. Is that right?

As to the rest of what you said, isn't it somewhat obviated by the article, it saying that the Doyle estate has been making money from his works, despite them being written around a hundred years ago? I'm wondering if I misunderstood something.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by dredmorbius on Thursday August 07, 2014 @10:26AM (#8147847)
"copyright should be of short fixed terms"

Yes.

The purpose of US copyright is to "promote Science" (that is, written knowledge"), and to effect that by "securing for limited times to authors ... the exclusive right to their respective writings". Since Doyle was a British subject, he'd have been governed by UK statute and purpose, and I'm less familiar with British legal doctrine in this case. I do understand, though that UK copyright at the time his works were authored didn't extend to 2014 -- that was a subsequent extension.

Which means: at the time Doyle composed his works, the benefits he anticipated could not have extended to the present day. Even if they had, the economic present-value analysis shows that the benefit would have been minuscule.

The fact that the Doyle estate has been benefiting from his writings has no retroactive incentive encouraging his writing them in the first place.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by mrow84 on Thursday August 07, 2014 @11:44AM (#8148292)
I suppose that really I just don't find your model compelling - I don't think that is how copyright revenues work. I understand that you are simplifying for the purposes of discussion, but in reality most copyrightable works of the kind we are discussing either "die" or, rarely, they "live on".

If the work does live on, you won't be charging a constant price for them year after year - the price of a book, for example, will go up to match inflation, so if you sell a constant number of books per year, your "dollar" revenue will also go up with inflation (I'm ignoring technological advances in printing, etc., which are independent of this argument). It is essentially in this way that the Doyle estate continue(s/d) to make money from Arthur's works, albeit through licensing - the point is those things were priced at current market value.

However, I personally don't believe that the creators of copyrightable works take any of this into account when they are producing those works, partly because of the uncertainty involved in future revenues - it is highly likely that any given work will be one of the ones that just dies, and so anyone who might bank on a perpetual revenue stream is probably deluded, and most people are smarter than that.

I'm not sure, but I think your analysis might provide the expected value of a work, but that is essentially meaningless for someone who is only going to produce a relatively small number of works, which are highly unlikely to somehow represent a random sample of all possible works.

Assuming I understood correctly, I agree with everything in the post to which I'm replying, regarding the role of incentives, just not the present-value analysis you refer to.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by dredmorbius on Friday August 08, 2014 @11:58AM (#8153433)
My model is simple. It's also markedly better in financial performance than most actual works' sales, which are heavily front-loaded. That is: as weak as the case the perpetuity model is for copyright any real-world revenue stream model is worse.

Prices rising with inflation is only keeping them stable in constant dollars. You'd have to apply an inflation discount to your future revenues as well.

My model isn't trying to argue that you'd value the actual real-world value of a book in terms of a constant, real-value, revenue stream. Reality is far less remunerative than that.

It's that even if that were an accurate model, the distant-future revenues would provide a minimal incentive to a current opportunity-cost analysis of writing for publication and income vs. alternative activities.

Which is to say: copyright terms are far longer than can be justified on an economic basis as incentive to authors.

That they're an incentive to present copyrightholders of aged works with some present value isn't at debate, but that's the only justification for post-hoc copyright term extension.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by mrow84 on Tuesday August 12, 2014 @06:27PM (#8170546)
Ok, I get you now - I find it more clear now that you've explicitly spelled it out as a kind of "expected upper bound". And of course, I completely agree with your conclusions, but that should by now be a given.

Also, apologies for not replying sooner, I thought you'd lost interest and had stopped checking.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by inopinatus on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @06:14AM (#8141789)
Modeling IP DCF as a perpetuity is like the physicist who assumes perfectly smooth surfaces. Fine for Finance 101, not so much in the real world of lumpy cashflows.

Notwithstanding which, those numbers actually indicate that even after 70 years there's a significant present value in the return. You wrote: "Assuming a $1000 constant payment stream, the present value of the 70th payment is only $32.86."

I would write that: "Assuming a $1000 constant payment stream, the present value of the 70th payment is still as high as $32.86". And they'll be even better than that since very-long-term compound average discount rates are low, closer to 3% iirc.

Instead, try modelling an annuity (yes, that's as bogus as the perpetuity, but bear with it) for two periods: 45 years and 52 years. At 3%, I make that a 5.5% better deal for the extra seven years of viability. I won't bore everyone with the math.

Note also, I'm not arguing for the current system; merely pointing out that (irrespective of other complications) setting IP rights as coterminous with the originator is inequitable.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by dredmorbius on Friday August 08, 2014 @11:51AM (#8153395)
The perpetuity model allows for a clear illustration of what the possible return on a constant stream of book sales might be. In reality, for virtually all works, the actual story is that you'll see a few sales in the first few years, and virtually none afterwards. A very small number of works hit the long-term publication lottery.

Which means that you're looking at a future payment stream that's both decreasing nominally AND is being discounted to an ever increasing amount.

But in order to support the increasingly perpetual duration of copyright, for which only a handful of works benefit, the public is enjoined from having access to _any_ works published in the past century, unless the copyright holder can be found, identified, and persuaded to publish the work.

This has a number of profound effects.

There's a hole in the sale of new editions from Amazon (not "freely available downloadable books", mind you, but sales) from 1920 to 2000. There are more books from the 1840s available than from the 1930s.

Germany's industrial expansion from a series of disjoint states to the powerhouse of Europe in the 19th century is thought to have been greatly promoted by weak copyright.

I explore both here: http://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/23xrkd/copyrigh... (with some bonus entertainment thrown in).

Freakonomics has looked into the question of whether or not copyright makes books disappear: http://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1wp3o8/freakono...

And noted copyright jurist and author Pamela Samuelson, of UC Berkeley, has stated: "Copyright has become the single most serious impediment to access to knowledge" http://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1wssas/copyrigh...

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by kaonashi on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @09:43AM (#8142376)
You're not just doing math, you're making a moral argument: that if the length of a copyright term is lesser due to the lifespan of the author, that this is somehow 'discriminatory'.
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by dredmorbius on Friday August 08, 2014 @07:09PM (#8155581)
I'm actually willing to accept the argument that copyright term should be independent of the life expectancy of the author -- that does affect the perceived present-value of the work. It's also how copyright was initially construed: a 14 year term, extensible once. Later extended to 28 years, with one renewal (by the author or heirs), to a maximum of 54 years.

What I don't support is for the term to be either indeterminate (as the repeated extensions of the past century have established), or perpetual, or even particularly extended. There are only a small number of cases where a 50-60 year term wouldn't be sufficient, and the concept of an extension means that unvalued works would enter into the public domain quickly.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by inopinatus on Sunday August 10, 2014 @11:49PM (#8161846)
Then we are in agreement on the first part; and I have no opinion re. the latter.
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by dredmorbius on Monday August 11, 2014 @12:08PM (#8163817)
Re: the latter. Look at the Constitutional basis for copyright and patent, at least in the US.

To achieve the ends, that is, the progress of science and useful arts, the means is provided: exclusive rights for limited times.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by baddox on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @02:57AM (#8141370)
How would you arrange a copyright system that would not be discriminatory? For example, if you allow copyrights to be passed on to kin or other beneficiaries after death, you discriminate against people with no family or close friends. If you only let copyrights last a year, you discriminate against people who have less than a year to live, as well as young people who would prefer to have the monopoly for much longer.
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by PeterisP on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:58AM (#8141491)
As the commercial rights of copyrights are transferrable, both your examples are not really valid - people with no family nor close friends, as well as those with less than a year to live can sell their rights to whomever and spend those resources as they wish while they can.

This isn't discriminatory, as the value of the rights would be the same for author with/without family, and for the author with 6 months to live vs 60 years expected lifespan.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by baddox on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:36PM (#8143700)
I doubt that the value of knowing you will pass on wealth to your children when you die is the same as just selling the copyright to a third party while you're still alive. I thought that was the point of the original argument.
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by fiatmoney on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:47PM (#8140901)
Wait, are you claiming to believe that the change in aggregate economic outcomes driven by a change in copyright assignment is enough to measurably affect aggregate life expectancy?

Besides which, the average member of the population will spend far more money on creative works than they will receive in revenue on them; it would be to their benefit to have the price of creative works drop.

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by nkurz on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:02AM (#8141099)
No, the claim would be that it's discriminatory for a work by a person with a statistically short life expectancy to have less market value than a person with greater. Possibly true, but it's an interesting for of poetic justice for all works upcoming young black females to be inherently more valuable than than yet another bestselling sequel by an established octogenarian white male.[1]

As for the price of creative works, a common fear is that if copyright protection was weaker, artists might no longer feel properly incentivized to make creative works, and an uncreated work is not isn't available at any price. I have trouble sharing this fear, although the impact would probably depend on your taste in art.

[1] A slight poetic license, as statistically American black females have slightly greater life expectancy at every age than do American white males: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr62/nvsr62_07.pdf

Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by baddox on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:00AM (#8141375)
If a person with a shorter life expectancy values a lifelong copyright less than a person with a longer life expectancy, presumably that means the people value being able to pass their copyright onto kin or other beneficiaries (like charity) after their death. But what about people with no kin or beneficiaries, or people who don't want to pass on their earthly possessions after they die? They will also be discriminated against, by this logic.
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by fineline on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:21AM (#8141416)
To decline an opportunity (choosing to bequeath to nobody) is not the same as to be denied that same opportunity. The latter could be discrimination, the former case could not, as who would be the discriminator?
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by baddox on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:34PM (#8143689)
If any denial of opportunity counts as discrimination, then why discriminate against everyone who didn't write the book by prohibiting them from making copies? Copyright is inherently discriminatory, and any specific implementation of a copyright system will discriminate in certain ways against certain people.
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by watwut on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:29AM (#8141438)
What about established octogenarian black female vs upcoming white straight young male?
Re:In 'Sherlock Holmes' Rights Dispute, Conan Doyle Estate S... by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @02:25AM (#8141299)
I don't think I agree with Opinatus, but they're definitely not claiming that.