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Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by susi22 on Monday July 07, 2014 @08:39AM (#7998454)
Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world. Who's supposed to protect us from Putin? The NATO?

The biggest fear for Merkel is twofold:

- Industry espionage. This would attack Germany at what they're best at and be huge problem. USA has been lucky to not be caught about that (in Germany).

- The much bigger problem for Merkel is however the growing Anti-Americanism in Germany. There has always been a good amount of it. But mostly, Germans see the US as a partner. There is in huge decline and it's a growing problem. Germans are much more serious about their privacy than Americans and the spying scandal didn't help America. Merkel also knows that she has to listen much more to the German public than for instance Obama has to listen to Americans. Germany has a very well functioning Democracy and any pressure from the public will quickly result in resignations or losing the next election. Germany has done this before: Kohl's affair got his party out. The FDP got thrown out of the parliament last year. You can quickly go from 40% to under 20% in Germany. Due to the many US scandals in the last 2 years, Germans see America very very skeptic these days. Der Spiegel yesterday's issue has some numbers: Who should Germany work together with? USA: 56%. Russia: 53%.

If you read many of the forums in Germany you'll see the growing dissatisfaction with the US as a partner. And more and more understanding for Putin these days.

My point of this post is: What this means it that if USA continues to bully the German people, then Merkel will be forced to take action and do something that she doesn't actually want to. She knows very well that America is extremely important and without a good relationship things will get much tougher in Europe/Germany. After all Germany is benefiting from the huge security the US provides to us. But Germans don't think that far ahead and only see the bully in America these days. I hope it doesn't get this far that Merkel is forced (by the German people/media) into getting distance from America since it would hurt both, Germany and the US. I'm very certain that Obama know that Merkel will always be his friend. But I'm not so sure if he realizes that the German people can make Merkel do something that she otherwise wouldn't do.

America: Watch out how far you take the bullying. It might just happen that the next generation of Westerners will end up hating you in 10-20 years down the road. And then, you will have no friends left but only enemies. What Obama and America's government does can be very dangerous for America in the future.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by Kenji on Monday July 07, 2014 @09:46AM (#7998749)
"After all, it's the US who's providing security to most of the western world."

If I do what the bully tells me to do, he leaves me alone and attacks other people. That's not security, that's abuse.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by rtpg on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:15AM (#7998911)
Right, because if Germany decides to cut off ties with the US, the CIC is going to start a nice little tour in Europe, just like how the US blew up France after De Gaulle came to power.

Most of the western world and the US have extremely aligned interests when it comes to security. And most of it revolves around making sure that trade routes stay open, and also making sure that instability doesn't end up messing with trade.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by happyscrappy on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:21AM (#7998943)
If you work hard enough you can make anyone appear to be a victim, but that is not productive work.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by paglia_s on Monday July 07, 2014 @11:05AM (#7999215)
> It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world. Who's supposed to protect us from Putin? The NATO?

Are you sure Europe couldn't manage its security by itself?

I mean, while keeping strong relations and cooperation directly with the US and inside NATO I don't understand why European countries wouldn't be able to defend themselves especially if we started thinking about a stronger cooperation between our defence systems or even a unique European army instead of keeping one for every country.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by count on Monday July 07, 2014 @12:13PM (#7999549)
http://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2011/05/14...

Europe isn't financially situated, nor does it seem to have the social stomach for it.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by mpweiher on Tuesday July 08, 2014 @03:03AM (#8003327)
Of course, Europe has a GDP that's greater than the US.

We just don't spend it on an imperial posture and wars of aggression.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by count on Tuesday July 08, 2014 @07:00PM (#8007209)
No doubt. Your freedom to avoid doing so rests (arguably) on the fact that US picks up the tab for all that posturing on your behalf.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by mpweiher on Sunday July 13, 2014 @02:57AM (#8026849)
A common misconception.

There are no European security interests in invading mid-eastern or latin-american countries, propping up dictators and toppling democratic governments in these regions and creating/financing the next wave of "terrorists", so that tab is all yours.

Furthermore, there is no "on your behalf" for the troops stationed in Europe. While some would argue that these are occupying forces in all but name, it's really in many cases just a convenient staging area for operations in the middle east.

In addition, and this tends to be forgotten, the nuclear shield is not a sign of generosity, but simply a tool to maintain US nuclear supremacy, by trading protection under the shield for a guarantee that those nuclear-capable countries under the shield don't, in fact, go nuclear.

US troops are stationed in those countries as assurance, human shields so to speak: if those countries are hit with nuclear strikes, US troops will die, ensuring a US retaliatory response.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by fit2rule on Monday July 07, 2014 @08:55AM (#7998517)
>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany.

The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence services in its constitution. That part is still held by the occupying power.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by eru on Monday July 07, 2014 @09:05AM (#7998572)
Didn't the 4+2 treaties restore full sovereignty?
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by tobiasu on Monday July 07, 2014 @09:17AM (#7998621)
On paper. But the 2+4 treaty is mostly Soviets leave, NATO stays and expands.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by arrrg on Monday July 07, 2014 @09:55AM (#7998791)
So what you are actually saying is, yes, Germany has full sovereignty.

Please don’t spread this bullshit. There is (mostly) mutually beneficial strong cooperation with a power-differential. That’s all. Stop spinning your dumb conspiracy theories.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by tobiasu on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:15AM (#7998909)
How about you stop raging about things I didn't say?
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by eru on Monday July 07, 2014 @09:30PM (#8002610)
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by fit2rule on Monday July 07, 2014 @12:22PM (#7999592)
Germany does not have full sovereignty and won't, ever, until a Peace Treaty is signed and ratified. America won't allow that to happen because then it'd have to pull out all of its troops - and in case you didn't know, Germany is full of American troops and other military-industrial resources.

Germany is, at most, a puppet state - a model for what America had hoped to pull off in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and so on ..

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by tobiasu on Monday July 07, 2014 @01:27PM (#8000008)
My question is: If Germany is still occupied, what is it that it can not do?
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by mschuster91 on Monday July 07, 2014 @05:03PM (#8001397)
Stand up to the shit the NSA is doing. Eject those fucking bastards who operate the NSA listening posts in Germany.

Seriously, everyone who works for the NSA has lost all my respect. You're undermining civil rights for everyone including yourself.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by arrrg on Wednesday July 09, 2014 @03:23PM (#8011715)
You do understand the difference between power differentials combined with different priorities and coercion by force?
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by fit2rule on Monday July 07, 2014 @11:17AM (#7999273)
Not fully valid until a Peace Treaty is signed (thus ending the war). The US is intentionally not allowing Germany to pursue such things so that it can maintain its bases on Germany without fuss. Also, I reiterate: the US runs Germanys' intelligence services.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by eru on Tuesday July 08, 2014 @01:15AM (#8003099)
How do I recognize a Peace Treaty when I see one?
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by kgarten on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:29AM (#7998997)
wondering why your comment is down-voted. The reaction of German politicians (CDU and SPD) underlines your point: Since the Snowden leaks they keep quite and hope it passes, because they know they cannot do anything against it (they are in the same boat) ... If Germany were a partner to US, it would make a fuzz about it.

Another hint about the sovereignty: there are still army bases on German ground, from which drones are controlled and people are killed ...

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by rollo on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:43AM (#7999098)
As a German I'm really glad about that. Germany is still not capable to act on its own. We're lucky the US are willing to hold us up while taking all the PR flak.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by legulere on Monday July 07, 2014 @12:26PM (#7999620)
The Americentrism on Hacker news is just insane. Europe doesn't need America to protect Europe from Russia. The reason why Europeans dislike the USA has pretty much stayed the same since long: The aggressive foreign politic and parts of the culture (you'll find a translation of american conditions as a set expression in almost all languages here). Nothing much changed.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by tikums on Wednesday July 09, 2014 @02:51PM (#8011514)
The Baltic States would like to disagree with you. France is selling Mistral warships to Russia, and a large part of Europe depends on Russia's natural gas. The local population on the border with Russia, including Poland, does not feel that Europe alone can protect them.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by michaelt on Monday July 07, 2014 @09:31AM (#7998692)

  After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. 
  Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the 
  US.
The problem with "They're assholes but we'll let them do what they like because we need them" is America isn't the only country Germany needs. Germany also imports a lot of oil and natural gas from Russia, for example. And lots of electronics and manufactured goods from China.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by tonymon on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:09AM (#7998867)
The thing is that Russia and China are not heavily spying on Germany, despite the fact, that they don't even have such close relationships as US and Germany [before]
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by gurkendoktor on Monday July 07, 2014 @11:55AM (#7999448)
Despite? :) Americans can freely spy in Germany because of the close relationship. In fact, thanks to our close relationship, we hand our data over for free in many cases (SWIFT, zomg!).
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by rollo on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:41AM (#7999083)
Lol. Of course they are, but German people are not very smart. They're upset their allies spy on them for their own protection, but if their enemies do that it's normal and not even a reason to cool relationships!
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by apidoc on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:26AM (#7998971)
If it not "hurt" anybody, where is than the problem that they spy the US-Citizens too?
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by susi22 on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:34AM (#7999032)
Sorry, I meant /this/ spying incident. The minster of the interior already said that the documents didn't really have anything important in it. The guys received ~$25k for the documents. It's not a huge deal actually. It was very very stupid of the American to do this and if I were Obama I'd be mad at the NSA. Why? Because the risk was big but the reward was tiny. You didn't gain much from the documents, yet you now have another huge dent in your relations (again!) and it's starting to piss of German politians & Germans.

America doesn't realize it fully yet, but it's making itself very unpopular in the last 5 years and this will be a huge problem in the future when all that's left is UK, Mexico & Canada (Maybe India) as your friends.

Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by igl on Wednesday July 09, 2014 @08:46PM (#8013010)
How much time you wasted reading spiegel... i can't imagine. You go back to the cold war era as if nothing happend the last 20 years and blather about meaningless surveys and feel gooderies. Very long message without any content.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by aluhut on Monday July 07, 2014 @09:08AM (#7998582)
She could use the situation as a leverage to push on privacy issues with US companies. Which may be obsolete with TTIP in future. So it wouldn't be a huge loss.
Re:Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case by znowi on Monday July 07, 2014 @10:26AM (#7998967)
> America: Watch out how far you take the bullying

America has enough power and influence to shut down any possible discontent - both within the country and of their minion states in Europe. It's been ruling over EU for many decades now and knows well how to handle "unpopular opinions".