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Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Pxtl on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @01:05PM (#7474741)
I've done this.

Everybody hated it. Most text editors don't display anything useful with these characters (either hiding them altogether or showing a useless "uknown" placeholder), and spreadhseet tools don't support the record separator (although they all let you provide a custom entry separator so the "unit" separator can work). Besides the obvious problem that there's no easy way to type the darned things when somebody hand-edits the file.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by mbauman on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @01:35PM (#7474944)
It's a shame. The solution is in the charset, but tools never developed to use it so we don't use it. But I'd wager that if tools had historically supported them, then the situation would be no different than it is with tab.

There are representational glyphs for tab, return, and others (⇥, ↵), and editors can show them in 'show whitespace' modes. There could be representational glyphs for these control characters, too. I'm not sure about the history of these symbols, but I imagine they were initially on keyboards. But if these control characters were on keyboards and had a representation in text then they'd be just as useless as the tab character is today.

Precisely what makes them valuable is their difficulty to type or display.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jarrett on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:13PM (#7476261)
> Precisely what makes them valuable is their difficulty to type or display.

Exactly. A naive[1] character-delimited format is only robust when its delimiter isn't on the keyboard. Which means it's practical to read and write only in specialized applications, not in a text editor. Which sort of defeats the point of a character-delimited format anyway. If your use cases are constrained to specialized applications, you may as well just use JSON or something similar, instead of a character-delimited format. (I'm imagining a world where we get to pick our ideal formats, not one where Excel happens to have an almost-working CSV implementation.)

[1] By "naive" I mean one where the format specification describes record and line characters only. Thus the format has no escaping system.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by stingraycharles on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:20PM (#7476302)
Is this a problem that's solved with a "movement" ? I'm willing to contribute parsers and perhaps a text editor plugin if other people are willing to chip in. But indeed, this is a problem that's solvable by making the tools support it. Since most of the tools are OSS, this is mostly solvable.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by 3JPLW on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:59PM (#7476943)
You're missing my point. If this were a "solved problem," then it would be no better than the status quo with TSV. Tabs are a similar kind of control character, except they can be typed and displayed easily. And TSV files are a mess because tabs end up in the fields themselves. It's a catch-22. (I'm exaggerating; this would still be somewhat better since there will never be a big key on your keyboard dedicated to these ASCII values.)
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by gress on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @09:05PM (#7477869)
Tabs are not a record separator. They are a formatting code. That's why a mess is created when they are used to separate records.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by hrabago on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @11:03PM (#7478322)
You just gave further proof that tabs are a catch-22.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by qnaal on Thursday March 27, 2014 @02:13AM (#7478897)
They are if you're saving formatted text in a tsv- thus all the discussion about this rather mediocre attempt to replace them.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by coldtea on Thursday March 27, 2014 @03:49PM (#7482939)
Yes, and he also specified why they are different from record separators in this regard.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by joesb on Friday March 28, 2014 @12:18AM (#7485320)
It's no different, if it can be displayed on the screen and it is on the keyboard, then the user will type it into the text file for how it look, not because they want to really use it as record separator. And if user can type it in the content then you have to escape it, which is back to the same problem with using tabs.

But if it's not on the keyboard, then the user won't type it. So it doesn't get used.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by coldtea on Friday March 28, 2014 @08:19AM (#7486685)
It's very different.

Tab, comma, semicolon are actual characters people DO and need to use inside records. So not only they can be typed into records, they absolutely HAVE to be typed for most textual records.

ASCII record separators are not needed inside records at all. If someone adds them "for how it looks", it's his problem.

One (not using a record separator inside a record) is a matter of choice and doing the right thing. The other (not using comma, semicolon or tab) is a non starter.

Obviously there's a difference.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by kibibu on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @10:16PM (#7478155)
I'd suggest that the most common tool used to generate and manipulate tabular data is Excel, which has terrible CSV export.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Pxtl on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @01:53PM (#7475064)
> Precisely what makes them valuable is their difficulty to type.

Again, if they'd caught on you'd imagine there would be some eventual convention in text-editors for what keybind would be used to enter them. Too bad the AltGr key (intended for entering rarely-used glyphs) doesn't appear on pure-English keyboards.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by wiredfool on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @02:40PM (#7475420)
I'd bet that they were on the eleventyzillion key IBM terminal keyboards.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by markeganfuller on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @03:37PM (#7475922)
I'm looking at my English keyboard and it has Alt Gr...
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Crito on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @03:56PM (#7476115)
Qwerty keyboards intended specifically for the US market (opposed to the UK for instance) frequently do not have AltGr keys. The thinkpad I'm using right now doesn't have one, and the Das Professional I have next to me doesn't have it either. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I've ever owned a keyboard with an AltGr key..

To get around this, I have taken to using xmodmap to turn my right alt key into altgr.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by markeganfuller on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:45PM (#7476506)
I'm surprised to learn that the Das doesn't have it.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by bruceboughton on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:25PM (#7476786)
How would you tell…?
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Crito on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:39PM (#7476861)
Ha. Only the Das Ultimate doesn't have printed keys. I got the Professional which has printed keys (http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional/). I'm not that show-offy about touch-typing. ;)
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by StavrosK on Thursday March 27, 2014 @05:51AM (#7479394)
Tip: I've got both, the blank one isn't worth the hassle. I can type fine on it, except when I need to find & or something. Then I have to press all the numeric keys to figure it out.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by flux_w42 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @06:21PM (#7477063)
Here in Belgium we have to AltGr-the hell out of our keyboard during development. These characters can only be entered using the AltGr key on a Belgian Azerty keyboard (be-latin1): '|' '@' '#' '^' '{' '}' '[' ']' '\' and '~' Its not realy a problem, as long as you're used to it :-)
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Crito on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @06:31PM (#7477125)
Of those, |, @, #, ^, {, } and ~ are all keys that you need shift for on US Qwerty keyboards, so I imagine that the typing experience for those is relatively comparable.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by oneeyedpigeon on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @09:10PM (#7477894)
IF those characters are actually displayed on the corresponding keys. If it's like the # on the Mac keyboard - not displayed anywhere - it's a right pain to learn in the first place without any visual cues.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by egypturnash on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @11:58PM (#7478505)
I'm looking at a couple Macs sitting around the house and they all have a pretty obvious # right above the 3. Perhaps you mean some other key?

(I do really miss the days when Mac keyboards had the weird symbol they use for "alt" in menus on the key.)

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by oneeyedpigeon on Thursday March 27, 2014 @04:29AM (#7479183)
Which keyboard do you have? The standard aluminium full size one doesn't label it, at least in the uk
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by spolster on Thursday March 27, 2014 @05:45AM (#7479383)
On US Mac keyboards, # is Shift-3. On UK Mac keyboards Shift-3 is the Pound (Sterling) sign. # becomes Alt-3 and is unlabelled on the keyboard.

In the past, I've bought US Mac keyboards just for the #, or switched the keyboard layout in software to US.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by oneeyedpigeon on Thursday March 27, 2014 @06:35AM (#7479511)
I've become used to the alt-3 combo now, but it took a long time. I type # a lot more than I ever type £. $, too.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by egypturnash on Thursday March 27, 2014 @12:33PM (#7481465)
All my machines have US keyboards.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by awwaiid on Thursday March 27, 2014 @12:12AM (#7478558)
I fixed my keyboard -- @,#,^,{,}.... no shift by default. Have to press shift to get 2,3,6,[,],9,0,...

Must be annoying to have to press shift to get those symbol chars while you're coding, eh?

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Crito on Thursday March 27, 2014 @03:52AM (#7479109)
> Must be annoying to have to press shift to get those symbol chars while you're coding, eh?

Honestly no. It's all muscle memory for me, I don't think about it any more than I think about typing capital letters.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by dagw on Thursday March 27, 2014 @04:03AM (#7479138)
I think it's french keyboards that are like that by default. Symbols are the default and you have to press the Shift-key to get numbers.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by seszett on Thursday March 27, 2014 @06:58AM (#7479579)
Yeah, and some people complain that they have to use shift to get numbers.

I just think people will criticise their local layout no matter what. I use both a French AZERTY and a Québec QWERTY everyday (at work/home) and I think they are simply equally good for both typing French and for coding. The Québec keyboard (maybe actually Canadian multilingual or something) might have an edge because it more easily allows typing accented letters in uppercase, but on the other hand it doesn't let me type the € sign, so...

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jablan on Thursday March 27, 2014 @09:10AM (#7480105)
So most Belgian developers are not switching layouts when coding? I thought most of us non-US developers are "bi-lingual" when it comes to keyboard layouts.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by srg0 on Thursday March 27, 2014 @09:55AM (#7480348)
That's nothing. Standard Italian layout lacks tilde and backtick completely… and one needs three fingers to type “{” or “}”. I use only US layout for programming.

Actually, I switch between three layouts on my machine (the third one is for my mother tongue), and I also use AltGr for typographic characters.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by hnal943 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:15PM (#7476271)
Living in the US, I've never heard of an AltGr key until this discussion.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by nnq on Thursday March 27, 2014 @10:51AM (#7480708)
Almost nobody calls it AltGr, it's just the goddamn "right Alt key" :) ...and yes, it has a different key code from the left one, even if in most software it works just like another Alt.

The clever thing is how some international keyboard layouts use it like some kind of "second shift" for typing character with accents/decorations: like AltGr+a => "ă", AltGr+q => "â", AltGr+s => "ș" etc. ...but not even these keyboard layouts are popular, and usually marked as "alternative" or "programmers' layout for language XYZ", because people are stupid and refuse to learn how to use this and prefer instead a funky layout national language keyboard instead of an US English keyboard with an AltGr that would just solve 99% of special characters problems.

If all the keyboards in the world would just be US English Standard keyboards with an AltGr (most US English keyboards I've seen do have an AltGr!), all latin-alphabet languages with special characters would be easy to type, we polyglots could easily use the same keyboard for typing in multiple languages without having to remember what keys' positions have radically changed on each layout... but people are stupid and refuse to learn even simple key combinations.

Oh, and somebody should shoot the British (and French) for adding that annoying extra key to the right of the left Shift that I always have to disable (and making the Shift much smaller), and for creating extra confusion by branding them as "british international" or "us english business" keyboards.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by spoiler on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @06:08PM (#7476998)
I'm from Croatia, and we have the AltGr key.

However, I discovered that Alt + Control = AltGr when I needed to use it at work[1], so it's simply a shortcut, I think.

[1]: We have (I recently switched to an UK keyboard, because it suits me better) keyboards at work, because the Croatian (all slavic languages, to be honest) is horrendously counterproductive for programming. Google the layout, and you'll realise why. An example: You need to press AltGr+B for `{` (if I remember correctly).

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by chinpokomon on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @10:14PM (#7478150)
Perhaps, but I think it still goes against the original intent. Ctrl-~ or Ctrl-^ should give you a record separator (RS) and Ctrl-Del or Ctrl-_ should give you a unit separator (US). For the same reason Ctrl-m or Ctrl-M should give you carriage return (CR). This is because ASCII values from 00-1F are control characters and effectively grounded the most significant bits 7 and 6. Shift similarly would toggle or ground bit 6, depending on the implementation.

What happened was that the Ctrl key became synonymous with "command" after Teletype, so it became more about doing something. Think about Ctrl-x, Ctrl-c, and Ctrl-v as an example, but you still see some relics like Ctrl-d as End of Transmission (EOT) to close a shell or terminal. Alt is like a shift, but it is actually closer to the Fn key on most laptop keyboards. It was an alternative function of that particular key, so where the shift key provided you with an alternate case, Alt was more akin to an entirely different key... it isn't Alt plus an 'a' key, it is Alt-a.

AltGr was like another Alt key. It was originally there to allow you to enter an alternate glyph, especially line drawing characters available in extended ASCII, B0-DF. I thought it was a mapping closer to flipping the most significant bit to 1, but it doesn't exactly overlay the lower ASCII range, so that might be another change that evolved on the way to the modern keyboard.

To your original point, Microsoft Windows will now usually treat the chord Ctrl-Alt as AltGr. I don't know if that is with all layouts, or just those keyboards that lack AltGr. I find that most Linux distributions tend to follow Microsoft's lead and provide similar mappings but now they even repurposed the Win key as Meta or sometimes called Super. So it is likely that Ctrl-Alt is commonly the equivalent of AltGr.

For the propose of this discussion, I think it'd be better if Ctrl could be used to type these text separators, but the way modern operating systems map their modern keyboards, it might be difficult to ever reach consensus on how this should be done.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by gpvos on Thursday March 27, 2014 @04:49AM (#7479244)
This hasn't been true since IBM keyboards became popular. For example, on older keyboards shift+number would simply toggle a bit, so shift+2 would be a double quote, etc., but this hasn't been common for decades now. Unfortunately.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by chinpokomon on Friday March 28, 2014 @04:59PM (#7489949)
Probably on the path to scan codes. By using scan codes, they could abstract what a particular key meant and thereby remap the keys so that they didn't have to match the ASCII table layout. I still don't understand why we evolved scan codes the way we did. This requires the OS to be in sync to be able to map them back.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by reidrac on Thursday March 27, 2014 @04:55AM (#7479259)
I'm a Spanish living in UK and I love using UK keyboards for the same reason: the layout is way better for programming!
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by EmielMols on Thursday March 27, 2014 @07:07AM (#7479603)
Windows used to have a "Czech (Programmers)" keyboard layout. As I remember, it was one of the few layouts that _just worked_. First thing I would do on new installs is make it the only available layout.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by louthy on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:40PM (#7476868)
Living in the UK, I've always seen it and for some reason never questioned what the Gr meant!
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Nilzor on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @06:01PM (#7476959)
so.. what does it mean?
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by flux_w42 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @06:44PM (#7477196)
According to wikipedia:

The meaning of the key's abbreviation is not explicitly given in many IBM PC compatible technical reference manuals. However, IBM states that AltGr is an abbreviation for alternate graphic, and Sun keyboards label the key as Alt Graph.

Apparently, AltGr was originally introduced as a means to produce box-drawing characters, also known as pseudographics, in text user interfaces. These characters are, however, much less useful in graphical user interfaces, and rather than alternate graphic the key is today used to produce alternate graphemes.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Sami_Lehtinen on Thursday March 27, 2014 @03:38AM (#7479090)
If there isn't a glyph, you can always use text representation for control codes. Here's an example using Notepad++. http://i60.tinypic.com/nps3d1.png
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jrochkind1 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:02PM (#7476636)
> but I imagine they were initially on keyboards

I wouldn't be surprised if the last time they were on a keyboard, it was a teletype keyboard or a keyboard that punched cards!

Although, actually, were they just typed using the control key from the start?

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by scelerat on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @02:02PM (#7475124)
ASCII 0-31 are called "control" characters so it should come as no surprise that you could type them using the Control key.

Unit Separator is Control-_ (underscore) and Record Separator is Control-^ (caret), for instance.

Most modern text editors won't pass through every control character. Vim lets me type the unit separator, but not the record separator, for instance.

Control-C and Control-D, End of Text and End of Transmission, still have utility in most shells, and it goes back directly to these ASCII control characters.

https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/c0.html

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by thwarted on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @02:38PM (#7475401)
Unit Separator is Control-_ (underscore) and Record Separator is Control-^ (caret), for instance.

Most modern text editors won't pass through every control character. Vim lets me type the unit separator, but not the record separator, for instance.

Vim has bindings for some control key combos, which is why you can't type them directly. I can type control-_ without issue, but to get an ASCII 30 (RS) to show up, I have to type control-v first (just like when at the shell prompt).

Useful hint: if you look at the output of man ascii (at least on linux with man-pages-3.22) find the control character you want to type in the left column and look in the same row on in the right column to find the letter/key to use with the control key.

For example, to type NAK, it's <control-u>. Vertical tab is <control-k>:

   $ echo <control-v><control-k> | od -c
   0000000  \v  \n
This is useful for control characters that don't have backslash escape expansions.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by raldi on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @02:44PM (#7475457)
...and that's why, when running a command that's reading what you're typing to stdin, you press Ctrl-D to tell it that you're done. Because, as your "man ascii" trick shows, this generates the "end of transmission" character.

Similarly, Ctrl-L clears the screen in most Unix apps because that generates the "form feed" character, and on a line printer or paper-based teletype terminal, "form feed" means to advance to the next page -- a nice empty clear piece of paper.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by thwarted on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:13PM (#7476259)
when running a command that's reading what you're typing to stdin, you press Ctrl-D to tell it that you're done. Because, as your "man ascii" trick shows, this generates the "end of transmission" character.

This is slightly different than being able to actually generate those characters as input. If you put a control-d in a file, nothing will stop reading the file when it sees the control-d, it's just another byte. readline knows how to interpret a bunch of control characters. There's also the terminal driver that has interpretations, which you can see with `stty -a`. When the tty layer sees a control-d or a control-c, it closes stdin or generates SIGINT, respectively. But even this can be dependent on if you're on a pty or attached directly to a serial line. There's nothing special about the mapping of control-d to end-of-transmission character, that's just how the layer that sees it is interpreting it. You can, for example, change how control-c is interpreted by `stty intr ^B`, which will make control-b generate SIGINT. And there's a way to put the terminal driver in complete transparent/passthru mode.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by raldi on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:55PM (#7476592)
Sure, the default is overridable, and the character has no magic effect when found in a binary file, but there's a reason Ctrl-D was chosen as the standard keystroke sequence to end a stdin transaction, and it has everything to do with the fact that "D" shows up next to "end of transmission" in `man ascii`.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by thwarted on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @10:57PM (#7478297)
Thank you for clarifying something that no one was disputing or event mentioned.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by qu4z-2 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @11:44PM (#7478470)
Yeah, I hate it when people point out interesting things I didn't know before too.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by thwarted on Thursday March 27, 2014 @03:21AM (#7479046)
I'm sure raldi can repeat, again, making it 3 times, that control-d means end of transmission and that's why it was chosen for signalling end of stdin, on a thread about how to type the control characters.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by oneeyedpigeon on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @09:14PM (#7477900)
I am going to love not having to type out 'clear' all the time - thank you!
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by sopooneo on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @03:33PM (#7475887)
what about Ctrl-C to break out of stuff? Does that correspond to an ascii control character?
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by elwin on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:06PM (#7476203)
Ctrl-C stops the program because the TTY driver watches for it and sends an interrupt signal when it appears. It's a slightly different mechanism.

There are more details in "man 3 termios", but be warned, the TTY layer is not a pleasant subject for reading.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by danielweber on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:52PM (#7476566)
I was disappointed that Ctrl-S and Ctrl-Q don't correspond (at least on the first ASCII chart I googled) to anything, because Ctrl-S stops text on my Unix terminals the exact same way it did on my brother's Apple ][e in 1984.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jrochkind1 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:13PM (#7476715)
> I was disappointed that Ctrl-S and Ctrl-Q don't correspond (at least on the first ASCII chart I googled) to anything

I'm pretty sure every possible combination of 7-bits is assigned SOME name in ascii, and Ctrl-any-case-insensitive-letter is a defined 7bit value.

This chart says control-s is `DC3 (Device Control, X-OFF)` and control-q is `DC1 (Device Control, X-ON)`. Yup, that's what they do alright.

http://www.unix-manuals.com/refs/misc/ascii-table.html

Don't forget everyone's favorite control-G, BEL, useful sending beeps across the wire on old school IRC, BBSen, and chat services. Or, you know, telegraph machines or something.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by csixty4 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:40PM (#7476866)
For anyone wondering, X-ON and X-OFF are flow control characters. A device sends X-OFF to say "my buffer is full, stop sending data" and X-ON when it's ready to resume.

On most Unix terminals, these have the effect of pausing and resuming the display when a bunch of data is scrolling by.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by __del__ on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @07:03PM (#7477301)
...and they're helpfully disabled with stty -ixon
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by danielweber on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @07:19PM (#7477390)
Oh, thank you. The reference I found[1] only showed them as "device control." I thought I imagined them having that.

Also, the classic control-G is still in C. "\a" is "alert (beep)."

[1] http://www.asciitable.com/

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by fineline on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @06:57PM (#7477260)
I think you mean your brother's Apple //e - they switched from the original ][ to // for later models. That's what I started programming on too - except in my case it was my Dad's.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by danielweber on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @07:20PM (#7477401)
Ah, but the boot screen said "APPLE ]["
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jloughry on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:19PM (#7476296)
Ctrl-C was originally "End of Text".
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by dhimes on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @06:10PM (#7477010)
That's a terrific hint. So the ctrl-<dec-val + 64 char> = <dec val char>
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jrochkind1 on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:08PM (#7476678)
> Unit Separator is Control-_ (underscore) and Record Separator is Control-^ (caret), for instance.

And this is in fact how they show up in vim (or at least my fairly uncustomized vim), using ^ to stand for ctrl as was once conventional: `^_` and `^^`

The legacy MARC binary format still used for library data uses ascii 29, 30, and 31 -- although for reasons with probably some bizarre historical definition uses them DIFFERENTLY than defined in ascii.

0x1D == 29 == ascii group seperator == MARC Record separator

0x1E == 30 == ascii record seperator == MARC Field Terminator

0x1F == 31 == ascii unit separator == MARC subfield seperator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARC_standards

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by pjbrunet on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @05:24PM (#7476777)
Back in the day with a numeric keypad you could type Alt-(number) to get any ASCII character, but not sure if that still works. In Firefox apparently Alt-1 takes you to the first tab, Alt-2 second tab...
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by BorgHunter on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @07:20PM (#7477400)
In most graphical *nix environments that I'm familiar with, if you hold Control and Shift¹ and type U, you can type any Unicode character by its (hex) code point. For instance, if you want an em dash, which is U+2014, hold Control and Shift, and type "U2014".

¹You can release Control and Shift after typing "U", in which case the character will appear after you type a space. Or, you can hold Control and Shift while typing the code point, in which case the character will appear after you release either modifier key.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by pjbrunet on Friday March 28, 2014 @01:54PM (#7488854)
I just tried in Debian, works! Very handy.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by chinpokomon on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @10:31PM (#7478221)
On Windows yes, just proceed the number with a 0 to get Unicode. See the "How to enter Unicode characters in Microsoft Windows" page [1] for more details, including one of my favorite tricks, using Alt-X in WordPad. It is especially useful when you want to know what the code point is for a Unicode character.

[1] http://www.fileformat.info/tip/microsoft/enter_unicode.htm

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by T-hawk on Thursday March 27, 2014 @12:00PM (#7481172)
Turn on Num Lock and it still works, including in Firefox.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Terretta on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @07:15PM (#7477359)
Alt-(3 digits)
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by npongratz on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @02:36PM (#7475379)
Vim will let you type the record separator, but you may have to precede it with Ctrl-V. In other words, type the Ctrl-V Ctrl-^ key sequence.

At least, that worked for me. Interesting that the unit separator does not have the same requirement to precede it with Ctrl-V.

More info in the vim docs:

http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/insert.html#ins-specia...

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by groovy2shoes on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:46PM (#7476518)
Yes, Ctrl-V in {insert,command} mode lets you input literal control characters, as well as numeric codes (31 for unit separator, 30 for record separator). If you're using vim on Windows, however, note that the default vimrc loads mswin.vim which changes Ctrl-V to paste. In that case, you can simply remove mswin.vim from your vimrc or use Ctrl-Q instead. (See :h i_Ctrl-V).

You can also use Ctrl-K to enter RFC1345 digraphs, in which case unit separator is 'Ctrl-K US' and record separator is 'Ctrl-K RS'. (See :h Ctrl-K).

Emacs has similar features, as well as a nifty TeX input mode: http://stackoverflow.com/q/6269618

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Pxtl on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @02:08PM (#7475172)
Huh. I wonder how many of those are completely disused, or would be meaningless in a file?
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by leoc on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @01:51PM (#7475053)
Yes, but nowadays this is just another bootstrap problem: editors don't support them because no documents use them, no documents use them because editors don't support them, and users scream and bawl because their cheese has moved. Using an editor with some good support for control-character-separated data would be pleasant, more pleasant than the usual experience of fiddling with CSV in a text editor. That said, another nasty aspect of the bootstrap process would be running control-character-separated documents through standard text-processing tools and pipelines and finding out how many of them strip non-tab control characters, turn them to spaces or mangle them pseudo-randomly.

I think the more fundamental problem with using the ASCII control characters is that there's no way (or rather, no obvious and standard way AFAICS) to use them to define (most) recursive data structures. That's not a problem when you stick to simple CSV-like arrays-of-arrays, but it's enough of a restriction to make one wonder if bringing ASCII back is worth the battles.

Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by Pxtl on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @01:55PM (#7475080)
Absolutely. Too bad they went for a flat format instead of a sexpr-like format. You wouldn't even need 4 characters - just start,end, and separator.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jimmaswell on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @04:21PM (#7476310)
if the object is given a UUID, the recursive data structure can just point to the UUID when it's serialized to this? what's the problem?
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by stcredzero on Thursday March 27, 2014 @06:19AM (#7479470)
Then you'd have 2 problems.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by jimmaswell on Thursday March 27, 2014 @10:50AM (#7480702)
If I'm serializing nodes to ascii, and the rows are objects of type Node, and their contents were their UUID then VAL then NEXT, NEXT being a UUID, I don't see how you have 2 problems now.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by userbinator on Wednesday March 26, 2014 @11:13PM (#7478360)
In the standard CP437 PC charset, those characters are up/down triangular arrows. The standard MS-DOS editor also easily supports entering them with Alt+30/31, so maybe 20 years ago a proposal to do this might've been more accepted than it is today.
Re:ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text by andrelaszlo on Thursday March 27, 2014 @07:45AM (#7479723)
It's pretty easy using Emacs. Just type C-q C-_ or C-q C-^, alternatively C-x 8 RET [037|036] RET.

Emacs makes it really easy to insert arbitrary unicode as well, even if you don't remember the code point. C-x 8 RET s n o w m a n RET will insert a ☃ (snowman).