By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out The Door

Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by mmanfrin on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @02:05AM (#7256807)

At my last startup, I was given the opportunity to begin as a junior and work my way up. I gave them a year of very hard work to the point that I feel I was proficient enough that I could talk development with people 3-4 years my senior and stay on level. I asked for a raise (as prior to that I was making an obscenely small amount, especially for San Francisco).

The CTO, who was a generally amiable guy, said "No, no, I get it, America is a capitalist country, you guys don't value loyalty" (he was from another country). I have never been so thoroughly insulted by what was probably meant as an innocuous statement. He told me he had to talk to the CEO about it. They stalled and stalled and the HR guy told me I should 'worry about learning more, don't worry about your salary'. Finally I confronted the CEO about the delay. He told me he needed to run it past the board, and that I would need to go through a two month 'trial' period before they'd authorize it. Little did I know he was himself half the board.

This entire time there were posters up in our kitchen offering $40k to people who could refer 4 developers. But my piddling little raise to market was being stonewalled because they felt they could get away with it.

I am still angry with them because they essentially forced me to go looking for another job, despite my absolute devotion to the team. I almost instantly got an offer almost double.

Disrespect and exploitation are absolutely prevalent. You can ask for a raise, but you'll never have leverage until you have an outside offer.

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by bsder on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @05:15AM (#7257330)

> The CTO, who was a generally amiable guy, said "No, no, I get it, America is a capitalist country, you guys don't value loyalty" (he was from another country). I have never been so thoroughly insulted by what was probably meant as an innocuous statement.

Um, no, it was not innocuous--that was your misread. Invoking your loyalty in any context other than purely positive is an "out the door" flag no matter the culture.

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by mcv on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @07:18AM (#7257693)

Yeah. Loyalty goes both ways. A company has no right to expect more loyalty than they're giving their employees. And a loyal company should give you that raise even before you ask.

That said, while I've worked for some really cool companies, with excellent contact with management, usually the way to get a raise was to get another job. (And usually I was ready for a change anyway; I shouldn't stay too long at the same place, no matter how much I like the people and the company.)

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by MartinCron on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @12:15PM (#7259383)

Loyalty is shorthand for "you're going to go above and beyond for us and we're going to do the bare minimum for you".

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by blueskin_ on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @03:37AM (#7257045)

I had something similar to me happen. I came in at a very low salary (which I would have rejected had I not been desperate at the time) - I already knew almost everything I'd be doing in that job, but they weren't sure about verifiable experience. I worked hard and tried to take on additional responsibilities and skills, but they didn't want me to (always a huge red flag in hindsight), my scheduled pay rise was repeatedly delayed for several months, then around annual review time, nobody got any raise at all. That was the point I had enough and quit - I'd already witnessed several of the best people there quit for better paying jobs prior to that.

I still consider that company a nice place to work for, with nice people, but the work itself was unfulfilling and the pay very poor.

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by aragot on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @03:18AM (#7257000)

...And when you have the outside offer and talk about it, you shatter any remaining trust your bosses have in you, so you'd better take the offer.

I'm sorry for your story. I feel the same about the industry. When you're young, job hopping is pretty much the only way to get your value, and it will let you see many different places.

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by borplk on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @03:45AM (#7257065)

   And when you have the outside offer and talk about it, you    shatter any remaining trust your bosses have in you, so you'd better take the offer.

This right there is the dilemma.

Does anyone have any solutions to it?

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by gadders on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @04:38AM (#7257215)

Nope. I think the accepted wisdom is not to take a competing offer from a current employer.

99 times out of 100 they will resent having their hand forced, and you'll be first out of the door when they get a chance.

The solution is for management to not be cheap.

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Re:By The Time You Give Them a Raise, They’re Already Out Th... by beaner on Tuesday February 18, 2014 @04:02AM (#7257116)

Your anecdote does not equate to "disrespect an exploitation are absolutely prevalent." You didn't actually build an argument for that statement, you provided one personal example. It sucks you had that experience, but just because you had it once doesn't mean it's a bad idea to ask. Bosses are people, and people come in all kinds - some honest and respectful, some not. Asking has the small potential downside of being a short-term time-waste, and the large potential upside of letting you continue to work at a job you're familiar with, with the people you like, at a more satisfying salary. Seems like it's worth simply inquiring about your options.

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