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Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by a3n on Saturday January 04, 2014 @12:55PM (#7012050)
> On his website, he's urging Americans to join the lawsuit, in his words, "to stop Barack Obama's NSA from snooping on the American people."

So this is mere political opportunism. Because it's not Obama's NSA, he just happened to touch down in part of the NSA's timeline. The NSA has been, would be and will be doing this regardless of administration or party.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by twoodfin on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:19PM (#7012169)
The NSA works for the President. He can order them to stop any and all of these programs immediately, and if they don't, start firing people until they do.

He won't (and I don't think he should) because he thinks it would be a bad idea from both a national security and a political standpoint.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by jbooth on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:31PM (#7012495)
I would be seriously fascinated to hear Obama's honest reasoning on this topic. He's got a history all the way back to law school of public statements that are diametrically opposed to what he's authorizing the NSA to do. Yet when he's president, he lets it continue? I mean, maybe he stopped them from doing some even worse stuff, but you'd think he'd be opposed to the currently disclosed programs, from his history.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by dllthomas on Saturday January 04, 2014 @05:04PM (#7013161)
Based on his history, I assumed he came into office, went to the NSA, and said, "Well, I know you want to do way more creepy spying. I want you to do less creepy spying. So how about we meet in the middle with a little more creepy spying?" And then they talked him up a little from there.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by jbooth on Saturday January 04, 2014 @09:55PM (#7014279)
Ha, fair enough.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by a3n on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:04PM (#7012399)
And Rand Paul works for Rand Paul, and with the Republicans that he has chosen to throw in with. The NSA would be in the exact same state of capability and behavior today if a Republican were in the Whitehouse, and Paul would not be suing.

This is about Rand Paul, using any available brick to throw at Obama, the idea being that as Obama's fortunes fall Paul's rise.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by larrys on Saturday January 04, 2014 @05:01PM (#7013150)
"Rand Paul, using any available brick to throw at Obama"

In short a version of grandstanding. Schumer of NY uses any opportunity he can in the same way for certain issues.

While all politicians do this some are more likely than others to seize the moment.

In other words something is in the news and then all the sudden Senator "x" is writing a letter or demanding some action which gets him publicity.

It would be interesting to see how many times a press release is issued by these types that is not about some issue that has bubbled up first in the media. (My point being that I'd like to see if I am correct...or not.)

I do know that politicians are quick to write letters about anything and everything. But certain issues that have more PR potential seem to be more equal than others. My observation.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by smokeyj on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:15PM (#7012439)
Why does Paul's motivation matter? I'm just happy to see something being done.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by pcloadletter on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:31PM (#7012498)
It does, because motivation decides what that "something" in "something being done" is.

Rand Paul's party is by far the biggest supporter of NSA, TSA, and other TLAs. If he really wanted to change things, he could start by convincing his own party to stop fellating the NSA.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by 1457389 on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:25PM (#7012744)
I think injunctive relief against the NSA is a goal, a "something" that most civil liberties advocates and Rand Paul can agree on. Let it not be said that liberals took yet another opportunity to miss an opportunity at bipartisan reform of our executive branch's powers.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by a3n on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:37PM (#7012523)
Motivation matters because you serve the goal, not the tactics. If Paul's motivation is not actually restricting the NSA, then at some point he's likely to pivot.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by adventured on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:51PM (#7012862)
Where in Rand Paul's heavily libertarian-leaning history do you see evidence that he's in favor of a police state (or policies that make such possible), such that a massive issue like this is one on which he's likely to pivot away from his fundamental beliefs?
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by a3n on Saturday January 04, 2014 @04:08PM (#7012941)
I know nothing of Rand Paul's history. When I see someone talking about an issue (the NSA) and using it to paint an opponent ("Obama's NSA"), then I think it's safe to say that the point is as much that opponent as the mere paint.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by Mikeb85 on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:47PM (#7012566)
> The NSA works for the President.

While I'm not that well versed in American politics, I find that hard to believe. The President doesn't seem to be some sort of all-controlling, micromanaging dictator, I'd find it more believable that he doesn't directly control the majority of US institutions, especially since most of them operate regardless of the political party in charge.

I mean, the NSA has been operating for 60 years, so obviously there is some continuity, and their activities go beyond the whims of each individual president...

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by adventured on Saturday January 04, 2014 @04:01PM (#7012915)
The NSA falls under the Department of Defense, they are a military tool. It is directly under the command of the Commander-in-chief, ie the US President, at all times, period.

They do what he commands. If that's not the case, then the United States is under siege, and the government has suffered a coup.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by dllthomas on Saturday January 04, 2014 @05:16PM (#7013207)
"If that's not the case, then the United States is under siege, and the government has suffered a coup."

Not every instance of dereliction of duty is a coup... but at the extreme, yeah.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by protomyth on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:48PM (#7012849)
The NSA is part of the executive branch and must obey directives from the President that do not violate the law. Otherwise, the President couldn't execute his/her duty as defined in the US Constitution.

"the buck stops here"

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by res0nat0r on Saturday January 04, 2014 @04:49PM (#7013107)
The President isn't a dictator.

The NSA is under the DoD. So he needs to start by firing Chuck Hagel, then his Deputy, then General Alexander, et al.

That is going to do more damage than it helps. The NSA isn't black and white no matter how much people on HN have recently decided it to be so.

Law changes and reforms within the NSA are the only sane way to fix issues you don't like without doing more harm than good, and the President just doesn't unilaterally get to pass new laws on his whim.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by dllthomas on Saturday January 04, 2014 @05:06PM (#7013168)
The president does set administrative policy for executive agencies, and can certainly tell them they need to stay further inside whatever bounds Congress has laid out. Of course, that can be trivially reversed by the next guy...
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by twoodfin on Saturday January 04, 2014 @10:01PM (#7014293)
Sure, that's why elections matter.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by natmaster on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:39PM (#7012274)
Don't let your political idealism blind you. Obama has control over the NSA, and Paul is calling out the man who can change its policies.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by corin_ on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:19PM (#7012453)
Sure you're right, but if Obama lost his last election do you think they'd be any difference to the NSA today? Maybe Rand Paul cares more about the morals than the politics, maybe he doesn't. I don't like the guy, but whatever his motive I'm happy he's doing this. At the end of the day, both sides would be happy to claim morality when really just playing politics, so even if that is what he's doing, I don't see it as making him any worse than his colleagues or rivals.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by natmaster on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:31PM (#7012770)
So I assume you knew Obama was going to kill innocent children with an drone strike campaign larger than anything before, spy on the world, etc, and because of this you did not vote for him?
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by corin_ on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:39PM (#7012816)
Well I didn't vote for anybody because I'm English. But I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, anyway.

I'm not arguing that Obama is good or shouldn't be blamed for NSA, I'm just saying that I believe had he not become president, it wouldn't have changed the NSA situation. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows, maybe a republican president right now would abolish the NSA, or maybe they would drop nukes all over Europe, I (and you) can't know exactly what would have happened. But if you disagree with my assumption that Obama losing wouldn't have lead to any different reaction to the NSA, then feel free to make that point. But apart from that, whether Obama is murdering kids with his bare hands or making the world an incredible place with his love, is irrelevant.

As to my own views, had I had US voting rights I would have voted for Obama, and by now would be (and am despite not voting) extremely upset by his actions in office. But I'm not sure my politics are relevant. My point was that I think that were the roles reversed, it would be a democrat wanting to fight the NSA, and a republican president keeping the status quo. And my point was that politicians on both sides consider both moral and political points before deciding to do something like this. I'd make that point whether I loved Rand Paul or hated him, whether I love the NSA or hate them.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by natmaster on Saturday January 04, 2014 @04:00PM (#7012904)
My point is that if you would simply pay attention to people's actions and words, instead of simply assuming some sort of weird groupthink along partylines, you would have been able to predict people's actions like Obama. Because you have not done so, you claims about what would have been different are completely invalid.

It's not about Repulican or Democrat, both parties have many evil people in them. It's about the person. Just one simple example is that Obama voted for renewal of the Patriot Act. This alone should have been enough to not be surprised by this.

And yes, if Ron Paul had been elected, this would not have happened. 30 years of consistency.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by dllthomas on Saturday January 04, 2014 @05:21PM (#7013229)
30 years of consistency, but also 30 years of not having much power. Power does change people. Whether it would have changed him enough to have mattered appreciably here, or whether other concerns would have dominated, who can say? I'd bet he would have been consistent on this point, but it's not a certainty.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by natmaster on Saturday January 04, 2014 @08:51PM (#7014068)
What is certain is power didn't change Obama - he's always been that way, and you need to pay attention to people's past before you put faith in them.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by dllthomas on Tuesday January 07, 2014 @01:06AM (#7015912)
What is entirely more likely is that power did change Obama, because he is human and that is (studies show) how humans tend to work. What is more up in the air is whether it changed his position on surveillance. It's possible that it did not - but note that a vote on the Patriot Act is not directly a vote on this stuff, and that he spoke against similar stuff in the past.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by jacalata on Saturday January 04, 2014 @07:30PM (#7013763)
You know this is Rand Paul, not Ron, right?
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by natmaster on Saturday January 04, 2014 @08:48PM (#7014051)
Rand Paul did not run for president in 2012. He has also only recently been elected as Senator, so he does not have a political record of 30 years.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by InclinedPlane on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:21PM (#7012179)
Indeed, the NSA is one of the four branches of our government, and there is little control the executive branch has over its operations or conduct.
Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by adventured on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:59PM (#7012897)
If Obama wanted to fundamentally alter this problem forever, he'd go on national TV and tell the American public exactly the situation - that the NSA is so powerful he can no longer control it. Then he'd convene with Congress, and order the NSA to be dismantled immediately (and rebuilt under a different, much more restrained spec).

If the NSA tried to stop the process and acted against the orders of the Commander-in-chief, Obama should then recall the US Military and destroy the NSA with brute force, treating it as a hostile domestic militia that is attempting a coup. Game over. Sound far fetched? No, it's just a standard issue government revolution, no different than what has gone on throughout history all across the map.

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by refurb on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:32PM (#7012245)
It is true that Obama is limited in what he can do, but apparently he isn't even willing to do that.

The Obama administration has decided to preserve a controversial arrangement under which a single military official is permitted to direct both the National Security Agency and the military’s cyberwarfare command despite an external review panel’s recommendation against doing so, according to U.S. officials.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/white-...

Re:Sen. Rand Paul says he's suing over NSA policies by mixmastamyk on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:32PM (#7012244)
I think those that have been paying attention know this. If it is bad from one party it is bad from another. However, perhaps this is a calculated attempt to rally TV conservatives around the cause. It may not be completely accurate, but it might work.