Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by caycep on Monday December 23, 2013 @12:59PM
(#6955536)
Well, one pot of money goes towards grants and publications subject to peer review, and scientific datasets that are publicly accessible, while the other comes from shady origins with no review whatsoever, for purposes that are clearly marked as PR, lobby and obstructionism...
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by jswinghammer on Monday December 23, 2013 @01:01PM
(#6955550)
With the series of exposes about the shortcomings of the peer review process it seems odd to lean on that very much. This seems particularly true since this topic is so politically charged and there would be virtually no funding available for climate change research absent government spending.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by caycep on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @02:04AM
(#6958577)
You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. That certain journals aren't doing peer review correctly, or that there is politics in the academia isn't a reason to not have peer review at all. And it does seem to work for some (PLoS One, for example). A flawed peer review system to validate knowledge is still better than a propaganda system driven for short term corporate gain.
Also - most academic scientific research depends on government spending. That's the whole point of academia, no? To work on problems companies don't want to fund because of no clear short-term impact on the bottom line. Not everyone is a Bell Labs or Google.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by jerf on Monday December 23, 2013 @01:01PM
(#6955551)
I do have to admit I sort of find it amusing when climate denialist alarmists (mmm, watch me pile the -ists on!) try to scream "Follow the money!" as if billions upon billions of dollars don't depend on climate alarmism being maintained exactly as is.
If "money" disproves or proves scientific hypotheses, there's a lot of things that need to be rewritten.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by scotty79 on Monday December 23, 2013 @12:55PM
(#6955509)
Funny thing is that they burn through all this money to publicize the thing that isn't true but they wished it was. As if this wasn't physical reality but some sort of soft, social thing like if allowing non-whites have same rights or women to vote is good idea or not.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by jswinghammer on Monday December 23, 2013 @01:03PM
(#6955556)
It would a stretch to equate the current state of climate science with the current state of physics in terms of the reliability of its' predictive models.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by snowwrestler on Monday December 23, 2013 @02:12PM
(#6955975)
This creates a false dichotomy between climate science and physics. Researchers studying the climate use physical models to do so. And their accuracy is not bad--100 years ago they predicted that burning fossil fuels would warm the climate, and that matches what we measure today.
The precision is low, though. That is a result of the chaos created by the immense complexity of the systems involved. We can't predict the precise path of an individual electron through a bar of copper either.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by snowwrestler on Monday December 23, 2013 @01:54PM
(#6955879)
The fundamental question on climate change is whether you trust the academic- and government-funded ecosystem of scientific research. Structurally, it's not substantially different for research into the climate than it is for research into any other scientific subject.
If you believe such a structure is incapable of producing objectively supportable results on climate, then you must at least be skeptical of other scientific results.
If you feel different levels of trust for the results of different areas of scientific research, then you should engage in some introspection about the criteria you're using to make those distinctions. Is it because you have a deep working familiarity with those areas of research? Or because of some other factors?
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by glenra on Monday December 23, 2013 @03:07PM
(#6956241)
It's possible for just about any scientific field to get stuck in an error cascade and take a while to climb out of it. Medicine has pretty much the same problem as climate - lots of scientists are doing good work but some are finding bogus results and we have very poor mechanisms for making sure the good work is what bubbles to the top. Even if many of the individual studies are fine, politically organized summaries of those study results are problematic - they can rather trivially be manipulated to show any result desired by controlling the timing of the inputs.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by elgabogringo on Monday December 23, 2013 @12:30PM
(#6955371)
With elementary school knowledge of history we can know that the the earth was warmer 1000 years ago than it was today. It's sad that it takes a billion dollars to get this simple truth out, but in the face of the billions of dollars at stake for special interests, governments, and UN beauracrats, it's sadly the case.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by Shivetya on Monday December 23, 2013 @01:30PM
(#6955714)
Another term to search for is, Medieval Warm Period
It has been warmer before on Earth while people have been around. There have been articles as early from 2003 I can find in the Telegraph but like all views not following the "common consensus line" they are mocked, derided, or ignored.
From where tree lines ended on some mountains covered by snow, to the Vikings being able to navigate areas of the ocean that have ice this day. From where crops were grown then to today, there are many identifiable items from that period which point to a warmer climate than any we have.
If anything this article could read, 1 billion dollar network goes up against the 1 trillion or more dollar Global Warming industrial machine. There is a lot of money in GW and those making it don't want it threatened.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by gmac on Monday December 23, 2013 @02:29PM
(#6956048)
If that's true, it still doesn't follow that human activity isn't warming the climate, or that we can take the additional warming right now without enormous disruption. I call non-sequitur.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by buckbova on Monday December 23, 2013 @02:53PM
(#6956182)
This information is provided to plant some reasonable doubt to anthropomorphic gw and to suggest there's larger forces at play here than greenhouse gasses.
It is relevant but it is not "proof" of anything on it's own, aside from the Earth's climate can shift substantially within short periods without any human contributions.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by yetanotherphd on Monday December 23, 2013 @12:45PM
(#6955464)
>"This is how wealthy individuals or corporations translate their economic power into political and cultural power."
>He added: "They have their profits and they hire people to write books that say climate change is not real. They hear people to go on TV and say climate change is not real. It ends up that people without economic power don't have the same size voice as the people who have economic power, and so it ends up distorting democracy."
This guy is really onto something. I hope is next exposé is of George Soros, the SPLF, the ADL and other groups with wealthy backers who push their own political agenda.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by blisterpeanuts on Monday December 23, 2013 @12:32PM
(#6955383)
"However, Brulle admitted that tracing the funding back to its original sources was difficult, as around three quarters of the money has been routed through trusts that assume anonymity to their donors."
Doesn't that basically invalidate the entire thesis of this little article? If he can't prove that there's a denial machine funded by specific entities, then maybe there isn't one. Maybe there's just a bunch of skeptics out there who don't buy into the claims of global warming.
Now, I do think there are macro changes happening that we can and should do something about. Personally, I like ozone and I hate skin cancer; I think we should do everything we can to restore the ozone protection layer in the upper atmosphere. I also hate poison ivy, which has been thriving in this CO2-rich era. I think it is a good idea to cut back on CO2 emissions and push for more reforestation across North America, and preserve the rain forests of South and Central America. Africa, too -- somehow, they need to control population growth and do some reforestation. This would probably help improve the quality of life for inhabitants of the planet over the next 50-100 years. But warming -- not sure if it's even our fault, let alone what we can do to slow it down. We're coming out of an ice age; it's not clear we want to or can reverse that process.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by caycep on Monday December 23, 2013 @01:00PM
(#6955547)
Does it even matter? The recipients are identified, and it's pretty clear what their intentions are, and it's not to generate science or data attempting to refute global warming. It's pretty clearly earmarked for negative PR and lobbying.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by jerf on Monday December 23, 2013 @12:56PM
(#6955515)
No, it doesn't. It also tends to imply that he didn't do it, so this is just "Look! Lots of money! Surely some of it is going here!" when you really get down to it.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by xirdstl on Monday December 23, 2013 @01:07PM
(#6955580)
Is this the logic here? Organization X received $Y in funding. Organization X in some part denies climate change. Therefore $Y is spent on fighting climate change.
This seems analogous to someone on the right looking at Planned Parenthood's budget $Z and saying that PP spends $Z on abortion.
Re:Conservative groups spend up to $1B a year to fight actio...
by dylandrop on Monday December 23, 2013 @02:51PM
(#6956165)
Well two things:
1) "Organization X in some part denies climate change"
Organization X in _totality_ denies climate change
2) "This seems analogous to someone on the right "
The difference (at least in your quote) is that espousing the benefits of abortion is different from actually performing abortion, and no one is claiming that the organizations mentioned are actually burning coal with the $Y in funding.
Also - most academic scientific research depends on government spending. That's the whole point of academia, no? To work on problems companies don't want to fund because of no clear short-term impact on the bottom line. Not everyone is a Bell Labs or Google.
If "money" disproves or proves scientific hypotheses, there's a lot of things that need to be rewritten.
In the end you can't bribe physics.
The precision is low, though. That is a result of the chaos created by the immense complexity of the systems involved. We can't predict the precise path of an individual electron through a bar of copper either.
If you believe such a structure is incapable of producing objectively supportable results on climate, then you must at least be skeptical of other scientific results.
If you feel different levels of trust for the results of different areas of scientific research, then you should engage in some introspection about the criteria you're using to make those distinctions. Is it because you have a deep working familiarity with those areas of research? Or because of some other factors?
Good discussion of "error cascades" here: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1642
This research study finds that most research findings are false: http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
It would suggest that the climate fluctuates even during periods where carbon emissions from humans was far less than today.
It has been warmer before on Earth while people have been around. There have been articles as early from 2003 I can find in the Telegraph but like all views not following the "common consensus line" they are mocked, derided, or ignored.
From where tree lines ended on some mountains covered by snow, to the Vikings being able to navigate areas of the ocean that have ice this day. From where crops were grown then to today, there are many identifiable items from that period which point to a warmer climate than any we have.
If anything this article could read, 1 billion dollar network goes up against the 1 trillion or more dollar Global Warming industrial machine. There is a lot of money in GW and those making it don't want it threatened.
It is relevant but it is not "proof" of anything on it's own, aside from the Earth's climate can shift substantially within short periods without any human contributions.
>He added: "They have their profits and they hire people to write books that say climate change is not real. They hear people to go on TV and say climate change is not real. It ends up that people without economic power don't have the same size voice as the people who have economic power, and so it ends up distorting democracy."
This guy is really onto something. I hope is next exposé is of George Soros, the SPLF, the ADL and other groups with wealthy backers who push their own political agenda.
Doesn't that basically invalidate the entire thesis of this little article? If he can't prove that there's a denial machine funded by specific entities, then maybe there isn't one. Maybe there's just a bunch of skeptics out there who don't buy into the claims of global warming.
Now, I do think there are macro changes happening that we can and should do something about. Personally, I like ozone and I hate skin cancer; I think we should do everything we can to restore the ozone protection layer in the upper atmosphere. I also hate poison ivy, which has been thriving in this CO2-rich era. I think it is a good idea to cut back on CO2 emissions and push for more reforestation across North America, and preserve the rain forests of South and Central America. Africa, too -- somehow, they need to control population growth and do some reforestation. This would probably help improve the quality of life for inhabitants of the planet over the next 50-100 years. But warming -- not sure if it's even our fault, let alone what we can do to slow it down. We're coming out of an ice age; it's not clear we want to or can reverse that process.
This seems analogous to someone on the right looking at Planned Parenthood's budget $Z and saying that PP spends $Z on abortion.
Am I missing something?
1) "Organization X in some part denies climate change"
Organization X in _totality_ denies climate change
2) "This seems analogous to someone on the right "
The difference (at least in your quote) is that espousing the benefits of abortion is different from actually performing abortion, and no one is claiming that the organizations mentioned are actually burning coal with the $Y in funding.