Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by skylan_q on Friday December 13, 2013 @06:22PM
(#6903463)
Bitcoins were dealt a blow in Norway as the government of Scandinavia’s richest nation said the virtual currency doesn’t qualify as real money.
I don't see how this is a blow to bitcoin. All this does is leave the door open for people to use bitcoin and escape the tax system without being punished. If the government of Norway didn't accept the physical phenomenon of gravity, would gravity have "failed the test"?
The market is bitcoin's ultimate test. Not the government's recognition of it.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by gamblor956 on Friday December 13, 2013 @09:38PM
(#6904317)
VAT is a tax paid by the consumer, and which is collected by the final seller (to the end consumer). A business which accepts bitcoins would be required to remit the VAT in an acceptable currency. If the business did not collect VAT from the customer, the payment of VAT would be borne by the business.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by imrehg on Friday December 13, 2013 @06:59PM
(#6903641)
That is actually more likely a good than a bad thibg. Here in Taiwan bitcoin was just recently classified as commodity like gold, instead of currency. This makes bitcoin businesses and local exchange, bitcoin atm possible, since if it was currency, one would have to get a bank license to do pretty much all that. Let's hope it stays this way, and things kick off. We will be doing some bitcoin+law events here in the Taipei Hackerspace.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by imrehg on Saturday December 14, 2013 @11:32PM
(#6908396)
A lot of things happening at the moment. ~3 weeks ago there was almost nothing, now I heard of 4 exchanges coming online around now or soon, bitcoin ATM is on the way, every week there's bitcoin meetup, just did my first purchase yesterday.
For the regulatory effect, one of the technologically very advanced law firm just did an assessment, it's in Chinese but they promised English translation in the coming weeks.
http://www.eigerlaw.com/zh/publications/cat_view/17-publicat... (Alex Tsai, December 2013, 比特幣之介紹及其交易在台灣法律環境之適用) Good to know that Bitcoin is 比特幣 in Chinese :) My email in the profile, can let you know when the English assessment is published.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by LukeHoersten on Friday December 13, 2013 @06:09PM
(#6903410)
It's funny how media outlets often use pictures of gold coins with the Bitcoin logo on it to illustrate Bitcoin. If it doesn't have a physical representation they make one ;-)
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by jnbiche on Friday December 13, 2013 @07:02PM
(#6903659)
Speaking of the dubious benefits of government regulations, Mike Cadwell just had to shut down his casascius coins business after FinCEN sent him a cease and desist letter accusing him of unlicensed money transmission. Note that Mike never accepted U.S. dollars for his casascius coins, so the only premium he got for his coins was in exchange for his coin's design and metals. So people were sending hims Bitcoins and in return they got Bitcoins plus a pretty gold/silver/bronze coin, clearly marketed as non-legal tender.
How anyone could consider this money transmission is beyond me. It's sickening hyper-regulation. And even more sickening is that the FinCEN rep stood in front of congress not even a month ago and assured congress how careful FinCEN was to not stifle innovation with overregulation. Admittedly, casascius coins aren't high technology (although they're very attractive), but the fact that FinCEN was so quick to crack down here does not inspire confidence at all.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by lostlogin on Friday December 13, 2013 @06:31PM
(#6903503)
How media outlets use images is often painful. New Zealand Herald, APN, is a good example of how to do it badly. Both their app and website are image centric. Images load slowly, and the text jumps as you are reading. Often it's just loading some crap stock image like a police car with lights on or other such filler content. If I wanted images, I'd go to a TV or video streaming news site. I'm trying to wean myself off sites that behave like NZ herald.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by LukeHoersten on Saturday December 14, 2013 @02:03PM
(#6906658)
They're not actual bitcoins. The Bitcoin is a wallet embedded inside of a physical coin. You could take a picture of a USB key and call it a Bitcoin using that logic.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by johnwyles on Friday December 13, 2013 @07:07PM
(#6903683)
If they do not now they could, in the future, retroactively find you and tax you for gains on BTC since the ledger is public and traceable. If this really concerns you I suggest you read-up on Bitcoin Mixers / Tumblers - but be warned these services could be dubious and take your BTC for their own!
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by ryanthejuggler on Friday December 13, 2013 @08:50PM
(#6904157)
It irritates me when people talk about "bitcoins", plural. Bitcoin is so divisible that it really seems like more of a "stuff" that can't be pluralized, like sand or water[1].
I forgot where I read it but there was once a description of data that derided the term "datum", singular, to mean one data point. "To anyone who's ever worked with it, data is a _stuff_." Wish I could find the book or article.
[1] Yeah, you can use "sands" or "waters" in a somewhat poetic manner, but that definitely stands out as a special usage.
Re:Bitcoins Fail Currency Test in Scandinavia’s Richest Nation
by keevie on Friday December 13, 2013 @09:03PM
(#6904208)
"datum" is pretty common in academic literature. Even more common is treating "data" as grammatically plural: e.g. "The data show..."
There are plenty of examples of plural mass nouns though, and they all have slightly different meanings than the usual sense of the word. peoples, monies, sands, waters, etc.
If they titled it "Norway classifies Bitcoin as asset instead of currency". The tone would sound very different.
Another example is this:
"42% of Americans Know What Bitcoin is" [1]
vs.
"6% of Americans Think Bitcoin Is an Xbox Game" [2]
Both articles are talking about the same survey.
[1] http://www.coindesk.com/americans-think-bitcoin-is-xbox-game...
[2] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/12/6-of-a...
I don't see how this is a blow to bitcoin. All this does is leave the door open for people to use bitcoin and escape the tax system without being punished. If the government of Norway didn't accept the physical phenomenon of gravity, would gravity have "failed the test"?
The market is bitcoin's ultimate test. Not the government's recognition of it.
Norway ruled that Bitcoins are an asset subject to capital gains taxation. I'm not sure how that leaves the door open for people to dodge taxes.
Sales taxes...
It's a refundable tax for companies, not a claimed tax.
But unsure how this works in practice. There are also some minimum that has to be reached before one has to add vat.
0: http://www.frilansinfo.no/hva-er-en-barteravtale
What is the effect of treating it as commodity means to bitcoin business in Taiwan?
How is bitcoin perceived in Taiwan?
For the regulatory effect, one of the technologically very advanced law firm just did an assessment, it's in Chinese but they promised English translation in the coming weeks. http://www.eigerlaw.com/zh/publications/cat_view/17-publicat... (Alex Tsai, December 2013, 比特幣之介紹及其交易在台灣法律環境之適用) Good to know that Bitcoin is 比特幣 in Chinese :) My email in the profile, can let you know when the English assessment is published.
How anyone could consider this money transmission is beyond me. It's sickening hyper-regulation. And even more sickening is that the FinCEN rep stood in front of congress not even a month ago and assured congress how careful FinCEN was to not stifle innovation with overregulation. Admittedly, casascius coins aren't high technology (although they're very attractive), but the fact that FinCEN was so quick to crack down here does not inspire confidence at all.
https://www.casascius.com/
I have transferred funds to Mt.Gox and traded, will the authorities now automatically assume these are in the form of BTC, and tax me accordingly?
And what, pray tell, backs all the world's fiat currencies? Absolutely nothing.
I forgot where I read it but there was once a description of data that derided the term "datum", singular, to mean one data point. "To anyone who's ever worked with it, data is a _stuff_." Wish I could find the book or article.
[1] Yeah, you can use "sands" or "waters" in a somewhat poetic manner, but that definitely stands out as a special usage.
There are plenty of examples of plural mass nouns though, and they all have slightly different meanings than the usual sense of the word. peoples, monies, sands, waters, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun#Multiple_senses_for_...
language is complicated, and the rules aren't necessarily rationally intuitive.