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Re:India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto ... by dredmorbius on Monday December 02, 2013 @02:56PM (#6836075)
for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen

There are two other possibilities you don't consider:

1. India could prevail in negotiating for carbon emission reductions elsewhere (the US, EU, Japan). Technology transfers greatly increasing India's GDP/bbl wouldn't hurt either -- it's presently around $400/bbl, the US sees $1000/bbl, most of Europe is in the $1500-$3000/bbl range.

2. Stunning advances in renewable, sustainable, and/or low-carbon energy technologies could allow for growth in India's standard of living without additional carbon emissions. I put the likelihood of this as low.

Long run: there's a balance of population and per-capita resource consumption. The total sustainable rate is fixed. The question is: do you wish for a future with a very high population, or a for one with a high per-capita standard of living? They're at odds.

Re:India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto ... by cscurmudgeon on Monday December 02, 2013 @05:19PM (#6836985)
I wish for a future where every human being has more or less the same standards of living independent of where they were born. Or at the least, the same "pollution limits" independent of borders.

The earth and the climate don't care who pollutes how much. The total amount of pollution matters and there shouldn't be a privileged few consuming magnitudes higher than the rest. Plain and simple.

Re:India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto ... by dredmorbius on Monday December 02, 2013 @07:20PM (#6837633)
I wish for a future where every human being has more or less the same standards of living

I suspect we'll get there.

What I'm less certain of is what that standard of living will be.

Re:India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto ... by cscurmudgeon on Monday December 02, 2013 @08:29PM (#6837914)
So poor people should try getting rich because there is a chance everyone will get poor? (Meanwhile the rich consume as usual.) Don't you see how fucked up that stance is?
Re:India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto ... by dredmorbius on Monday December 02, 2013 @08:42PM (#6837968)
So poor people should try getting rich because there is a chance everyone will get poor?

Sorry, I'm not parsing that. Are you missing a negative somewhere?

My intended meaning: a greater level of allocation equity may be achieved. If we're lucky, it's going to be at a relatively high level (I'd be happy with a late 19th / early 20th century industrialized world equivalent). If we're not, it will be at subsistence agricultural levels -- somewhere between late bronze and early iron ages.

Modern industrialized civilization is a tremendous heat engine, and without high-quality fuel inputs, it will cease to function. That will tend to decrease global wealth and population drastically.

Re:India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto ... by cscurmudgeon on Tuesday December 03, 2013 @07:31AM (#6839863)
Missing a negative! :)
Re:India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto ... by dredmorbius on Tuesday December 03, 2013 @02:32PM (#6842545)
Gotchya.

As to the statement: life ain't fair.

There's a question of whether it's better to let some survive and/or thrive, and others not. It goes back a long ways. One of the more recent debates emerged when Garrett Hardin published his "Lifeboat Ethics" essay in 1974, which prompted fierce debate for several decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics

http://web.ntpu.edu.tw/~ckliu/course/research/lifeboat.pdf