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Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by Datsundere on Friday November 01, 2013 @09:22AM (#6653470)
Don't blame the patent system. While it is true that patent system should be reformed/eliminated, those companies chose to take advantage of it.

Just because you can steal something when nobody is looking doesn't mean it's justified to be stolen.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cloverich on Friday November 01, 2013 @09:31AM (#6653532)
> Don't blame the patent system. While it is true that patent system should be reformed/eliminated ...

But thats the point. You can blame the companies all you want, another will always be there to step up and take advantage of it. I do blame the companies, but what does it matter? Are we likely going to see an Apple Boycott? I doubt it, and changing one companies business practices will have little impact on the industry as a whole.

But the patent system - that's a single target we can all align against, whose elimination would solve these issues immediately.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by yock on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:04AM (#6653785)
Every system has its exploits, will you blame those systems for their failures? Individuals are always to blame because individuals are the actors in the broken system. The blame must always lie with those doing wrong, or else we're just absolving ourselves of the hurt we cause each other.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cloverich on Friday November 01, 2013 @11:29AM (#6654416)
I'm a pragmatist at heart is all. I look for the action that leads to the outcome I want, and I don't believe outcry against companies will ever have any impact on the patent system, outside of resultant legislative action.

> Every system has its exploits, will you blame those systems for their failures?

The system is responsible for maintaining the most beneficial incentives possible. In some cases, it is difficult or even impossible to remove those exploits, and in those cases I look to blame individuals to the maximum extent possible. But in this particular example, there is little to no apparent benefit to having (the current) patent system in place, and only perverse incentives. While it doesn't absolve the companies of their behavior, I don't see how it can be viewed as anything other than an inevitable outcome (given the system design). In that light, I may avoid Apple products for instance, but am generally uninterested in any complaint or action that isn't targeted at the root cause which for all intents and purposes can be fixed!

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by justinsteele on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:22AM (#6653910)
It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both. A system that does it's best to prevent abuse, and individuals who do not seek out ways to abuse it, combined make a best case scenario.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by jaegerpicker on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:58AM (#6654174)
Sure I'm completely on board to fix the patent system but it does not follow that I should continue to support a company that I believe behaves unethically. Apple boycott, yeah I doubt it will happen but that's not the point. It's about informing my personal choices and helping to speak out to inform others. Boycott's unlikely to change anything but real change tends to come from lots of people speaking out and informing lots of other people.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by VikingCoder on Friday November 01, 2013 @09:29AM (#6653519)
Companies are required to maximize their profits, and patents are a legal framework for creating profit.

I absolutely blame the patent system, and it's absurd of you to suggest otherwise.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by jasonlotito on Friday November 01, 2013 @09:54AM (#6653710)
> Companies are required to maximize their profits,

This meme needs to die.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/09/h...

"There are no statutes that put the shareholder at the top of the corporate priority list."

"Nor does the law require, as many believe, that executives and directors owe a special fiduciary duty to shareholders."

It needs to die.

Edit: And there are many, many other places you can find support for this.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by VikingCoder on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:56AM (#6654161)
Shareholders can and have replaced the Board of Directors of public companies, based on their lack of faith in the company's ability to maximize profits. The Board of Directors is in charge of hiring and firing for the senior executives. The Board of Directors and Senior Executives know this, and aren't stupid.

All that has to happen is that shareholders (which are often other corporations) need to act RESPONSIBLY, and you're right, this meme will die. I expect the sun to go red giant, first, though.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by chc on Friday November 01, 2013 @03:20PM (#6655692)
If you are seriously suggesting that Tim Cook would have been ousted had Apple not gone down this road, I think you and the rest of the world are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by mark-r on Friday November 01, 2013 @04:31PM (#6656220)
You misunderstand. Tim Cook wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place if the board had thought he would shy away from such a decision.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by timberlane on Saturday November 02, 2013 @01:44AM (#6658304)
Unless pg is right, and this will actually hurt aap's share price. And pg is not always wrong.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by sigzero on Saturday November 02, 2013 @10:54AM (#6659363)
I predict it isn't going to do anything to hurt share price.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by VikingCoder on Friday November 01, 2013 @08:01PM (#6657415)
Yeah, it would be crazy to think that a corporation like Apple would ever replace their CEO.

I'm reminded of the phrase, Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by talmand on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:11AM (#6653830)
Actually I think that article points out my take on the matter. For most corporations, its duty is to maximize shareholder value; the problem is that too many people have forgotten what that actually means.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by dd36 on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:10AM (#6653829)
There may not be statutes but there absolutely is case law. In fact, I'm sure there are indirect statutes. There's just no way that the purpose of a for profit company is not to maximize profits to the owners of that company. There may be reasonable debate about where best to deploy capital but those decisions should be justified.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by gamblor956 on Friday November 01, 2013 @11:57AM (#6654622)
The company's duty is to maximize the value of its shareholder's holdings in the company (i.e., stock). This can be done by maximizing profitability (see, e.g., Caterpillar, most publicly traded companies), but it can also be done through growth (i.e., Amazon, most startups) at the expense of maximized profitability.

It's easier to maximize profitability than it is to maximize growth. This is why more companies pursue the first path.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by mgkimsal on Friday November 01, 2013 @04:15PM (#6656094)
"Maximum profitability" still needs a timeframe to judge against. Maximum in the next quarter? Next year? Next decade? Maximizing in short term may harm or prohibit maximizing profits in long term, which would be just as bad (or worse) for shareholders.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by gamblor956 on Friday November 01, 2013 @04:25PM (#6656172)
Profit in the reporting context refers to the annual measure of net income, so maximum profitability generally refers to the profit generated in a single tax year.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by roblev on Sunday November 03, 2013 @08:20AM (#6663108)
Most corporations try to be profitable over a long term, and there is no requirement to be "maximally profitable" in a single year or over any time period. For every corporation there are judgements over the value of investing in product pipeline, sales, marketing etc. or the value of increasing short-term profits at the expense of long-term, the value of taking a risky action that may pay-off or may bring customer anger and lost sales etc.

The vast majority of single actions that a corporation takes are not mandated under some simplistic view of "maximising shareholder value".

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by oijaf888 on Friday November 01, 2013 @11:22AM (#6654353)
What is the timeframe for maximizing profits? If I can liquidate the entire company and maximize profits for that quarter am I required to do so? If I can avoid instigating expensive legal battles and the associated bad PR to maximize profits in the next 10 years wouldn't I be just as required to do that?
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by philwelch on Friday November 01, 2013 @11:25AM (#6654386)
I think I addressed this point in another thread once: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6505161
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by moocowduckquack on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:27AM (#6653936)
A company can have more than one purpose and sometimes maximising profits gets in the way of the other purposes of the business, so just because a business is for profit, does not neccessarily mean that it will seek to maximise that profit or that the owners want it to as they may be just as interested in the other purposes that the business can be put to.

Money alone makes a poor measure of business as business is there to do stuff and money is just one of the processes involved.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by moocowduckquack on Friday November 01, 2013 @09:44AM (#6653624)
How about blaming both. These positions don't seem exclusive.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by hcarvalhoalves on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:35AM (#6654003)
> They chose to take advantage of it.

What would they do, just let Google acquire even more mobile-related patents? You think Google would never sue them? Let's not be naive, the only reason Google is a good citizen with patents today is because a retaliation would make a dent on them, and they know it.

The parent is right, the problem is the patent system, which gives a disproportional power to the holder and creates these power dynamics, "eat or be eaten". There's no space for ethics or fairness there.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by samspenc on Friday November 01, 2013 @01:42PM (#6655115)
That's not quite true. The newer generation of tech companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter) have taken to using patents very very defensively, at least so far.

Google has gone as far doing an "open patent non-assertion pledge" which is far beyond just not using patents: http://www.google.com/patents/opnpledge/

Twitter has an Innovator Patent agreement: https://blog.twitter.com/2012/introducing-innovators-patent-...

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by overgryphon on Friday November 01, 2013 @04:20PM (#6656132)
That's because the newer tech companies haven't had enough time to build a catalog of patents to rival older Microsoft, Apple, and so forth.

Do you really think Google won't do the same to younger tech companies a decade from now?

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by gutnor on Friday November 01, 2013 @05:23PM (#6656537)
The problem here is rather that Google chose not to participate in the company buying the patents.

What do you do after that. Leave the companies that didn't pay alone ?

There used to be a time where companies would have been doing just that. But in mobile market, there is no competition anymore, there is a very rough war. 2 market leader (Nokia, Blackberry) have basically been pushed out of the market in less than 5 years. That's like incredible speed ( I work in financial software company, it takes decades of continuous bad strategy to doom a company ). Their error of judgement was all considered minor and the correction they have done should have been more than enough to limit the losses. In addition of that, only 2 players on the market manage to make money, a lot of money.

In that climate, anything that can give you even a few months edge can be the difference between competing and becoming irrelevant.

The smartphone market is brutal - too brutal for regular competition strategies.