News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by adamnemecek on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:00PM (#6485691)
If you want to support the Lavabit defense fund, you can do so here

https://rally.org/lavabit

EDIT: Since I posted the link 30 minutes ago, there is roughly $1200 more in fund and I'm guessing that it's mostly from HN. So keep it up.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by sandstrom on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:16PM (#6485790)
I've donated. It's a very honorable thing to do, stand up for other peoples freedom in the face of personal losses and pain. Such an act should be supported and praised.

Although there is a very long way to go, America currently seems to be on path towards East Germany or China style surveillance.

”Every man should know that his conversations, his correspondence, and his personal life are private.“ - Lyndon B. Johnson

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jack-r-abbit on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:38PM (#6486184)
”Every man should know that his conversations, his correspondence, and his personal life are private.“ - Lyndon B. Johnson

But even professions that have confidentiality baked into their core (clergy, shrinks, doctors)* can be compelled to provide info to law enforcement. In some cases, they are legally required to report illegal conduct.

*EDIT: not attorneys (for the most part)

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by foxylad on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @08:01PM (#6486285)
Genuine question - what about legal client confidentiality?
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jack-r-abbit on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @08:11PM (#6486319)
You mean attorney-client privilege[1]? It seems that one is a bit more solid and harder (but not impossible) to break. But IANAL.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney%E2%80%93client_privile...

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by chris_mahan on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @08:08PM (#6486311)
Not attorneys. The law specifically protects them.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by DannyBee on Thursday October 03, 2013 @01:36AM (#6487377)
Actually, it varies from state to state (Just like doctor-patient) and, in fact, you could be compelled as an attorney to testify against a client in plenty of cases in plenty of states.

In a lot of states, for example, you can compel an attorney to testify about future or ongoing crimes, but not completed crimes someone is seeking legal advice for.

As an example, this is covered in california evidence code as section 956:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=evid&g...

"956. There is no privilege under this article if the services of the lawyer were sought or obtained to enable or aid anyone to commit or plan to commit a crime or a fraud."

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jack-r-abbit on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @08:12PM (#6486323)
Right. If only Lavabit had been Snowden's attorney... and not just his email provider.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by mcantelon on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @08:23PM (#6486350)
Interesting idea...
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jack-r-abbit on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @08:24PM (#6486354)
I thought the same thing as I typed that. But that would be an expensive email service. lol

EDIT: It kind of sounds like this is a grey area for attorney-client privilege[1]. I'm sure someone could successfully argue that privilege does not apply here because a) "LawyerBit" is not acting primarily as an attorney b) Email being email, the communications are disclosed to third parties

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney%E2%80%93client_privile...

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by dublinben on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @09:05PM (#6486480)
It wouldn't have to be. You can legally retain a lawyer for as little as $1. Even at a dollar a month, it would be nice for a third party email service to enjoy attorney-client privilege.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by generj on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @09:43PM (#6486609)
What if the messages were only ever internal to the system?

Or even constructed such that the lawyer was central to all communication.

So client A contacts the lawyer to advise client B of X. The lawyer dutifully complies (perhaps in an automated fashion).

Whenever Client A wishes to contact another party who is not a client of the lawyer, the lawyer is given a client lead from Client A. The lawyer emails (the only time when mail goes to 3rd parties) the party, inviting him to go on his retainer so he can advise him on Client A.

While such a system would have to be automated, the system could delete any evidence of this automation, or at least plausibly deny specific instances of the automation.

Thus, all involved could argue the lawyer was manually involved every step of the way in the process, which only ever occurred on the lawyer's system, and the client systems of his clients.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by tedunangst on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @11:11PM (#6486915)
You are not the first person to come up with the idea of "let's have a lawyer sit in the room while we plan our conspiracy". I doubt it works as well in real life as on TV.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by generj on Thursday October 03, 2013 @08:47PM (#6493108)
Is operating an encrypted email service a conspiracy?

You are doubtlessly right, though still fun to think about.

The law is (thankfully) not like code, and you can't always make a clever hack around the letter of it. When lawyers can, well, that' why they get paid well.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by DannyBee on Thursday October 03, 2013 @01:38AM (#6487380)
Insurance companies used to do this. The attorney client privilege generally only protects the seeking of legal advice, not the use of an attorney as a go-between for other purposes :)
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by mcantelon on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @09:50PM (#6486637)
Seems worth a try for sure.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by generj on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @10:35PM (#6486764)
I guess the government could argue RICO at that point against the lawyer, but I think that still wouldn't abridge lawyer-client confidentiality. Maybe it would.

Then the lawyer couldn't delete the systems like Lavabit did because the government would have confiscated them as evidence of the conspiracy.

At that point, however, the 5th Amendment should apply, because the server provides evidence of a conspiracy the lawyer took part in, providing the encryption keys would also be providing evidence of the conspiracy; requiring the lawyer to testify against himself.

Some judges have tortured the 5th Amendment worse than this, so it's not entirely foolproof. Still, it's unlikely other lawyers would take this sort of abuse standing down, nor would the general public.

So even the most extreme legal logic I can think of would be unable to penetrate this arrangement, providing the computer security and encryption was all top-notch. Disclaimer: IANAL, though I'd be willing to be the IT employee for any legal firm that wanted to construct such a system.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by kmfrk on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:21PM (#6486107)
Don't assume. The Hacker News donation drive was incredibly embarrassing the last time - with plenty of excuses for not donating: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6469485.

John Gruber at Daring Fireball has been doing a lot of work to encourage people to donate. I think the latest uptick has been the fireball effect at work.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by cheapsteak on Thursday October 03, 2013 @12:21AM (#6487150)
Many probably donated directly via Paypal weeks ago when the news first hit. I upvoted the linked article but didn't feel the need to donate again.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by aw3c2 on Thursday October 03, 2013 @06:18AM (#6487999)
> Let's rally for Lavabit to fight for the privacy rights of the American people.

I find that limitation to "American" (surely meaning US american) people an incredibly embarrassing and nationalist call to action and it alone made me instantly close the tab.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jlgaddis on Thursday October 03, 2013 @07:24PM (#6492819)
I completely understand your frustration. Like you, I believe that every human being deserves the right to privacy regardless of their nationality or where they live or where they were born.

Unfortunately, the Constitution of the United States of America, the sacred document that Mr. Levison was attempting to preserve, does not guarantee that right to every human being -- only Americans.

I look at it at a first step. Once we've "restored" the Constitution and managed to guarantee the right to privacy for those covered by it, only then can we start to "expand" that to include every human being.

I have many friends from all around the world and I believe 100% that all of us should be afforded that same right to privacy that the Constitution gives me, but we've got to start somewhere...

(Disclosure: I'm an American and I have and do donate to the EFF, EPIC, the Tor Project, and I happily gave to Mr. Levison's defense fund immediately after it was announced a few weeks ago.)

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by knappe on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:59PM (#6486007)
Found a bug:

1) Select an amount (I picked $25 as a test) 2) Advance to 'Step 2' 3) Go back to Step 1 4) Pick an amount again 5) Go to 'Step 2' 6) Fill out the form in detail 7) You'll be unable to hit the 'Continue' button

Edit:

Repeatable on other fundraiser pages.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by avolkovi on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:32PM (#6486160)
Thanks! Can you send this in to [email protected]? We'll look into this (I'm a developer at rally.org)
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by knappe on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:53PM (#6486251)
I submitted the bug via the contact page.

I'll send the same via email.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by 3pt14159 on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:12PM (#6485769)
How many of us want to help, but are afraid of the consequences?
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jrockway on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:20PM (#6485817)
I want to help, and am not afraid of the consequences. The government is not going to go after an individual for funding another's defense fund, and if they do, I guess I used my life for the right reasons.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by smtddr on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:18PM (#6486099)
Yay! That's the jrockway I remember! Just because of this comment, I'm tossing in $50.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jrockway on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @09:03PM (#6486472)
Thanks! I don't think I've ever donated to a legal defense fund, but this one seemed like a no-brainer.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jlgaddis on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:16PM (#6485794)
For a moment, I thought about what might happen if I donated.

Then, I thought about what might happen if I don't.

[deleted]
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by caf on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @08:49PM (#6486423)
...and now Fox News can quote you out of context saying "...I hate the US government... I might be a terrorist".
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by welder on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:16PM (#6485795)
If everyone thinks like you then there might be consequences.

But, if everyone donates without regard of consequences then there will be none. So just donate!

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by obituary_latte on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:21PM (#6485827)
As the old adage goes: freedom ain't free. There is fear either way - the real question is what do you want the fear get you?
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by kamjam on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @09:11PM (#6486512)
A lot of people did not donate either to Wikileaks for the very same reasons. Not necessarily on HN, but there was a lot of name calling and WL were evil etc etc. How times change.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by eyeareque on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:38PM (#6485911)
You make a great point. I just donated.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by adammil on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:59PM (#6486009)
I just donated. If you want to fight government abuse of power, you literally have to start somewhere.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by welder on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:11PM (#6485761)
Thanks for sharing this link. I just donated $$

$29,341 Raised of the $40,000 goal.

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by malandrew on Thursday October 03, 2013 @12:38AM (#6487214)
Donated.

Like I said in the thread [0] linking to this crowdfunding campaign, I'm normally I'm hesitant to post one word comments like that, but in this case showing your donation breaks conformity behavior in large anonymous groups like the innocent bystander effect.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6486330

Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by jjh42 on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:09PM (#6486054)
Is there a way to donate bitcoin?
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by avolkovi on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:35PM (#6486174)
We have a prototype bitcoin donation form at rally.org, but we're still waiting on legal to approve it, hopefully we'll be able to add support soon.
Re:Lavabit Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Docu... by greenlander on Thursday October 03, 2013 @03:52AM (#6487674)
I saw your post, went to rally.org, and saw that the campaign was exactly $159 short of the $50000 goal, so I donated $159.

It looks like there is a new $96000 goal... someone else will have to do their share to pitch in.