News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jasonkester on Monday August 26, 2013 @10:12AM (#6277135)
For all the mean things that border control agents get away with every day, I personally enjoy "Returning From Thailand" as my little opportunity to even the score a bit.

"How long have you been gone?"

"I don't know. A year, give or take? Who keeps track?"

"Which countries did you visit while you were away? Your landing card just says 'most of them'"

"Well probably not most of them really, but definitely enough not to fit in that space. Let's see... [followed by a complete list]

"What's your occupation?"

"I own a software company. It pretty much runs itself these days, and I just check in every once in a while to see how things are going."

"Is this bag your only luggage?"

"Yeah. I was only gone a year, remember. I find you don't really need much stuff in the tropics. I've worn this shirt 40 days running now. I think I'll buy a new one now that I'm home"

Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit in a little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting lives. And that their attempts to make other people's lives worse is not really doing a very good job of making their own life any better.

One day they'll quit and go find a better job. Or give up trying to make other people's lives worse, thus making the world a slightly better place.

Seems to be working. These days at LAX, it seems that one in four of the people manning those desks is genuinely friendly. And the ones that need this sort of treatment are few and far between.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by steven777400 on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:41AM (#6277724)
I'm happy for you.

I have a friend in a similar situation to you (in terms of travelling/freedom/finances). It doesn't inspire me to "find a better job". Frankly, it makes me suicidal (I don't mean that in a hyperbole way). I look at how successful he is and I think; I could never be that successful. He will be cavorting around the world carefree for the rest of his life, and I will chained to a cube (whether at this job or another, doesn't really matter) until I'm unemployable and on the streets.

Getting a better job is nothing like what you and people like my friend have. You guys are in such a different realm, and although I enjoy following along with his adventures, it also hurts when he (and I hear a bit of this in your post too) can't understand that most of us will never and could never be in that position. 90% of new businesses fail. I barely have enough savings to last a month if I was out of a job, so the risk of trying to start and grow a business is much more likely to put me into poverty than it is to put me into financial freedom.

When I encounter a service worker, such a waiter, customs official, bus driver, etc who seems rude and snappy, I try (this is hard for me) to think about what they might be feeling. They could be having a bad day. Maybe someone yelled at them. Maybe their boss is cruel and belittling, but they can't find another job. Maybe their kids or spouse is trouble. Maybe the table before me left a religious tract instead of a monetary tip.

I realize your post is tongue-in-cheek, and intended to be funny (and it is). But it's also a bit hurtful. I can imagine that exchange, and the customs official is completely demoralized. The question in your hypothetical dialogue are entirely legitimate: they need to know where you've been and what you're up to. Your responses, although accurate, are made in such a way as to say "I'm better than you." I know you don't mean it that way. The same as I have to spend time away from facebook just because the endless stream of travels of my friend depress me too much, I sometimes just need to not know about them.

I don't know if you've ever actually said that dialogue to a customs person, but I only request you think carefully. A lot of people struggle with self-deprecation and/or depression. And an exchange which it makes so clear that he/she/me are stuck trying to pay the bills and work two jobs while other people are free and have it all just drives the depression that much deeper.

I don't say you should give up anything, or that you didn't work hard. I'm sure you deserve everything you have! Please just don't rub it in the face of a stranger who is lower class than you :(

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by eob on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:10PM (#6277933)
Thanks for this exchange, Jason and Steven.

It's rare to get to see, paired tightly together, such a vivid example of what's going on inside the heads of two participants in an otherwise ordinary and well-meaning conversation (even though it's hypothetical, in this case). Both the traveler and the agent are projecting certain beliefs upon the other, and feeling certain ways about themselves that the other doesn't realize.

I don't know why, but I found reading this exchange really powerful. I think because it happens all the time for many of us (playing both roles), but we never stop to think about what's going on inside the head of the other person.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jasonkester on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:56AM (#6277836)
Well said. But s/lower class than you/makes 3x more than you and will be able to retire without changing anything/.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6277782

As fate would have it, my job description is the same these days, but I am in fact doing much better, financially. Still, it's worth noting that travelling the world doesn't in any way require one to be wealthy.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jaysonelliot on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:19PM (#6277974)
I don't think I've read a more privileged, arrogant, myopic comment in a very long time.

In what world is it your role to judge a person for going to work every day to feed their family?

"Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit in a little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting lives."

I'm trying not to read that sentence in the voice of a young English aristocrat from the 1920s, but that's how it sounds. Mocking the working class for the distasteful faux pas of needing a paycheck to survive?

You are blessed for having been able to find a way to live a life of travel and pleasure while others have to worry about which bills they can pay, hope they don't get sick, and dream of someday being able to take even one vacation. Does that mean you are better than them? You certainly seem to think so.

"One day they'll quit . . . the ones that need this sort of treatment . . ."

Honestly, listen to yourself. Are you some authority appointed to correct the misbehavior of your inferiors? No. You're a guy with talent who drew the right cards, played them well, and was rewarded with a life others would like to have. Learn a lesson about humility from my grandmother who grew up in the Great Depression, and reminded me always to tell myself "there, but for the grace of God, go I."

On a side note, I see that you are the founder of Twiddla. Not that the opinion of a single user matters, but as a user, I will now look for an alternative. I have no interest in supporting such arrogance.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by SarahBinks on Tuesday August 27, 2013 @01:34AM (#6281647)
I realize that Jason Kester believes the customs officials are offended when he gloats about his globetrotting, but you know, they probably aren't. The likelihood is that they hear stuff like this dozens of times a day from happy, excited people who have just come home from extended travels. "Oh, yeah," they think, "that's nice."

They're probably a little annoyed that Mr Kester has negligently not bothered to retain the first half of his ticket, failed to deep track of when he left or what countries he visited, and was too stupid to fill out the paperwork properly. They may even roll their eyes thinking he's a bit of a smelly pig not to have changed his shirt in over a month and wonder why he couldn't afford to have more than one.

I'm pretty sure they don't give a crap about his software company, or have any use for his product, either. They're probably pretty content in knowing they have the federally mandated power to just just glance over at the big guy off to the side and within three minutes, Mr Kester will be bent over a table in another room with a couple of rubberized fingers up his ass.

If Mr Kester thinks he's making customs officials feel small and unimportant because he has such an "exciting life", or that he's in some way "evening the score" by bragging about having been in the Far East for over a year, I must say that "this sort of treatment" is rather too subtle for thick-skinned customs staffers. They really couldn't care less where he's been or where he's going, as long as he isn't carrying any contraband.

If he really wanted to make them feel that they're so much worse off than he is, he'd have to add, "... unlike you, with your shitty, dead-end job, sitting in a little cube," or some similar direct comparison. But that would probably get him taken into the other room.

Finally, I'm willing to bet that the agents aren't regular readers of Hacker News, so they haven't seen Mr Kester's post. In this case, ignorance is bliss.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jasonkester on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:25PM (#6278013)
Are you some authority appointed to correct the misbehavior of your inferiors?

No. If you came away with that impression then you may have misread my intent.

My stance is that mean people deserve to live an unhappy life. No more. Nice people, as noted in the comment you responded to, receive no such treatment from me. Mean people get a fictionalized account of a person leading a much better life than themselves, delivered by a person who in actual fact is not likely leading a much more interesting life at all.

As a mean person, the theory goes, one can continue being mean and thus unhappy. Or they can start being nice and be treated nicely. Notice how class does not enter into it at all.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jaysonelliot on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:33PM (#6278076)
Do you think for a moment about what that person had to put up with for the hours before you arrived that day, or will continue to deal with after you leave?

Is it not enough that you've managed to retire as a young man and lounge on the beaches of Thailand, do you also need to be treated with smiles and deference by people who still have to go to work every day? They have a job to do, and your abuse isn't going to help anything. At best, it'll just make the experience that much worse for the person in line behind you.

Empathy is not something that can be forced on a person, and a comment on a web page isn't going to make you change your attitude or think about anyone else's life, but then again, being a dick to customs agents isn't going to help, either, so I guess we're both wasting our breath.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by cpncrunch on Monday August 26, 2013 @07:31PM (#6280584)
"I'm rude because I've had a shitty day" isn't a good excuse.

I think Jason made the mistake of not clarifying in his comment that he only does this to agents who are rude to him first. Now his comment has turned into a new story by itself with a lot of angry comments.

I feel sorry for Jason because he seems like a nice guy who just didn't properly proofread his comment before posting and he's now getting a huge ass kicking as a result.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by justinator on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:11AM (#6277529)
The way to beat rudeness is not to be rude back.

I've had these same people greet me with a big smile, ask me how well I'll do in a race (they had already met many people doing the same race) and wish me good luck.

Airports are stressful places and traveling in general can also be stressful. My opinion?

Being rude is not your privilege. It won't fix a broken system. It just makes you personally feel better, at the expense of another. We're all much better than that - or so I should hope.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kintamanimatt on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:39AM (#6277706)
I can't see how jasonkester is being rude!
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by Jtsummers on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:59AM (#6277865)
> Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit in a little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting lives. And that their attempts to make other people's lives worse is not really doing a very good job of making their own life any better.

The assumption that those who aren't out traveling are beneath him and deserve the ill treatment that he's intending (whether they realize he's intending to be abusive or not).

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kintamanimatt on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:23PM (#6277998)
I interpreted it as him being encouraging and reminding people that there's a bigger, brighter world out there full of possibility—if they want it. Someone that's not interested in his kind of lifestyle won't be inspired, and his example would wash over them unnoticed. But for everyone else trapped in a life they never really wanted it's a gentle nudge and reminder to not waste time living a suboptimal life, doing a lot of things they don't want to be doing. It's a prod to take risks, start again, and make things better in whatever way is appropriate.

There have been people like jasonkester that have appeared in my life before. When times have been good they didn't inspire me, but were just good fun. When times have been bad, their example pushed and motivated me to get my life back on track. They may never have known what kind of good they did for me, and they may have even departed from my life, but I'm extremely grateful for the time they spent with me.

I really don't want to wear the same t-shirt for 40 days in a rainforest, and I really don't want to emulate jasonkester's travel plans; I'm allergic to spiders and nature! However, if I got stuck stamping passports or asking whether you'd like fries with that, I'm quite sure his passion would be quite invaluable as a reminder to sort my life out.

What jasonkester did can be done unpleasantly. Nobody likes people that say "nah nah nah nah boo boo my life is better than yours!", but I just don't get the feeling that's how it went down in this instance.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by Jtsummers on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:34PM (#6278081)
I like your optimism, sadly most people I've seen doing stuff like he describes do it in a distasteful and rude manner. Perhaps he's better than that, I don't know him, and I certainly hope so.

I've worked in service industries (of which I'll lump in TSA and Customs officials for now) and have been on the receiving end of it, polite or cordial people are welcome to talk about their experience, but then you get people like a friend of mine that would rather make them feel miserable about what they do for a living (the reason I can only take him in small doses these days).

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kintamanimatt on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:42PM (#6278119)
Oh so have I, and I'm specifically excluding the "nah nah nah nah boo boo" folks. The only thing those people do is encourage me to pay no attention to them. I was really talking about those that are able to just go live life, have a great time, and somehow seem to serve as a shining beacon for those lost at sea! It's even better when they have a sense of humor as well as passion. (Writing "most of them" on a landing card that has insufficient space is as creative as it is hilarious!)

What specifically does your friend do to piss you off?

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by Jtsummers on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:55PM (#6278215)
He can be belligerent and totally unsympathetic to most people in any sort of customer or human facing role. He's a better tipper now than he used to be, but can still be rude to harried waitstaff (i.e., when it's clear they have a lot of customers to handle he would get annoyed at having to wait for a refill). He dislikes companies/businesses charging him more than he thinks things are worth, while simultaneously being one of the strongest free-market capitalist supporters in my social circle. And he'll let their employees know he's upset. The irony is apparently lost on him.

With the TSA he likes to derail the process (unless he's short on time). Not just asking for a pat down rather than the scanner (if I gave myself more time at the airport I'd likely do the same), but to the point of abusing the worker rather than making the system itself slow down. Also, he has little regard for those behind him in line, and doesn't mind delaying them a few minutes so he can feel better about himself.

As I haven't spent much time with him (physically parted ways after college) the past few years I can't really recall any more specific incidents, but it was a reason that, in college, it took us about 6 months to become friends. I thought he was a jerk, and I was right, he just happens to be a good friend as well.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kghose on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:22AM (#6277606)
Yes.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by grecy on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:52AM (#6277807)
I'm Australian and come in and out of the US quite often. I've spent many years of my life traveling around doing what I want, including 2 years driving from Alaska to Argentina.

> Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit in a little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting lives

As a foreigner, this is exactly what you don't want to do. Pissing them off is a very, very bad idea. I've had many things said and done to me at the entrance to the US that I'd rather avoid in the future.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by vowelless on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:13PM (#6277948)
> As a foreigner, this is exactly what you don't want to do.

This is unfortunately correct. The border agent has final say in letting you into the country (regardless of the legitimacy of your documents).

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kamjam on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:23PM (#6277996)
I'm the same in at the immigration for my own country (UK) but as soon as I set foot in the line-up for any other country, it's "yes sir" and "no sir".

I'm not a tourist, it's my right to enter my own country.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kintamanimatt on Monday August 26, 2013 @10:18AM (#6277180)
> Your landing card just says 'most of them'"

I'm so sorry for not contributing anything of value to the conversation, but that's the funniest thing I've read all week! I've gotta try this next time I don't have a connecting flight!

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jacquesm on Monday August 26, 2013 @10:46AM (#6277369)
Hehe, I think it works, it's making me seriously reconsider the life I'm living. Thanks for a good laugh and best of luck with your life-style. (to borrow a bit from DNA).
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by amirmc on Monday August 26, 2013 @10:32AM (#6277268)
Slightly tounge-in-cheek but I really hope that I'm not the guy behind you in line when I next visit the US.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kintamanimatt on Monday August 26, 2013 @10:59AM (#6277453)
Usually people of interest get whisked aside to a secondary screening area. They don't tend to hold up the queue that much, except for the fact the border agent has to temporarily close their desk for a few minutes while they escort that person to another room. In total you might face an extra 60-120 seconds in the line.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jasonkester on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:04AM (#6277489)
I think he was more worried about being vented on. It's hard to do much to a returning US citizen, so the guy in front would eventually be waved through (possibly without the friendly "welcome home" that they're supposed to say). Next guy in line, from anywhere else at all, would get the wrath of justice unleashed on him.

Sorry, dude. My bad.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by victorf on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:14AM (#6277547)
What wrath? The whole line is US citizens, and it's hard to do much to a returning US citizen.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by amirmc on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:47AM (#6277774)
Yes, that is what I was thinking but someone else just reminded me that your line would be only US citizens. I'd be in the other one with all the other non-US people.

Therefore, if any wrath is unleashed on me it won't be because of you. Carry on!

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by kintamanimatt on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:09AM (#6277513)
> possibly without the friendly "welcome home" that they're supposed to say

That'd be about as about as not getting art in the foam of my latte! I'd write a letter!

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by daleharvey on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:50AM (#6277792)
This isnt true in my experience, I was on a watchlist type thing for a few years (dont lose your passport ever if you plan to visit the states :) and every time I got taken to secondary screening but only after a rather lengthy set of questions at the first screen, I think even once I interrupted them to ask just to send me to the secondary one.

It was pretty fustrating to have to wait sometimes up to hours (Dallas airport sucks) to know that I was going to get sent to another screen and wait anywhere between 15 minutes and 3 hours to get out, the people were also almost always overly aggressive.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by einhverfr on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:03AM (#6277484)
I am stealing your approach.

One thing I will say though is there are huge differences in border culture. JFK is uniformly unpleasant to enter/ Houston is pretty bad too. I have rarely had unpleasantness in Seatac.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by evadne on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:00PM (#6277872)
The last time back to Vancouver, the CBSA guy actually had to be convinced that I don’t have additional clothes… I showed him a hotel business card, then he postulated that I could have left clothes in a hotel!

(I got in.)

Another gem: “No way anybody takes a 75-day vacation, I don’t even take two weeks.”

I for one do not understand their obsession with clothes. It seems to me that they focus on people with very little luggage.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by walshemj on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:44AM (#6277741)
Coming across like an entitled bitch is asking for trouble esp if vallywag get hold of it and starts monstering you.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by aneth5 on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:27AM (#6277637)
I imagine it's hard for you to see how arrogant and insensitive it is to rub your success and privilege in the face of the middle class. Think about that twice next time.

You have a great life. Appreciate it but also appreciate others. Being successful doesn't have to mean being a jerk.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jasonkester on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:49AM (#6277782)
For what it's worth, during the years I actually had these conversations, I doubt I ever made as much as a Customs clerk. I'd bring in maybe $20k in consulting and product income over the course of a year, which was enough to travel on but likely not enough to pay for, say, the apartment that the clerk lived in.

There's no requirement for privilege, or even "living wage" to lead such a lifestyle. As such, I appreciate that you thought I was somehow successful, but by most objective standards, I was just a homeless guy.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by niuzeta on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:18PM (#6277968)
I need to remind you that you're using the fact that your financial situation isn't successful as a justification to being a jerk to another human being.

If a border officer was rude to you, then be a jerk to him, not some random stranger who just happened to be in same situation to him.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by jasonkester on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:33PM (#6278075)
You're mistaken. I was correcting somebody who wrongly assumed I was using my high social status as a reason to be mean to somebody. And now I'm correcting somebody who wrongly assumed I was being mean because my social status was in fact low.

But in actual fact, I was doing that thing you describe in your second paragraph. As it states in my original comment.

Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by trevelyan on Monday August 26, 2013 @01:13PM (#6278349)
Somewhat off-topic in this thread, but I'd like to ask: were you happy when you traveled? How did you deal with social alienation? And where were the best places you went? Are you still doing this?
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by awda on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:34AM (#6277675)
I don't think TSA workers qualify as middle class. It's not a skilled job, and it doesn't pay particularly well.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by ErsatzVerkehr on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:45AM (#6277753)
Thankfully, Immigration/Customs is not run by the TSA. Immigration/Customs appears to be orders of magnitude more competent and professional.
Re:Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” by mortenjorck on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:38AM (#6277699)
It might have been a 20th-Century middle-class job, had it existed then.