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Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by danielweber on Friday August 16, 2013 @01:34PM (#6225489)
Part of the reason prices have gone up so much is that credit has become so easy.

50 years ago, if you wanted to go to college, you went, and the prices were reasonable because people could not afford a lot of money for it, and no one would lend it to them.

There is almost no downward price pressure on college costs, and there is upward price pressure: since the students don't care about the price, they always want the school with better and more modern facilities, which cost money.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by ChuckMcM on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:47PM (#6225976)
I think it is even worse than simply "easy credit", I think the rewards built in encourage exploitation. Allow me to explain.

1) You have capital seeking a return.

2) There exists a basic need that can be facilitated by the application of capital (a degree for a "good job").

3) You remove all the risk out of providing capital for filling the need through government guarantees.

4) You provide a rate of return that is higher than the government guaranteed rate on their own capital instruments (treasury bills).

#4 there, which gives you higher returns on low risk investments, creates a demand for those instruments. And that demand causes a supply of instruments to be created. And the regulation on that supply is minimal.

The result is you get financial institutions giving loans to students for useless degrees at inflated cost institutions knowing that the government has made defaulting nearly impossible (hence the low risk) and they can offer better rates than t-bills.

Students are being exploited exactly like unqualified home buyers were being exploited in the mortgage fiasco of 2008.

What annoys me about the journalistic coverage is that the 'rage views' are "Students are graduating with few prospects from college and a mountain of debt" whereas the bigger story is that "Rich people demanding higher returns, enslave unsuspecting youth through their loan seller proxies."

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 001sky on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:42PM (#6226645)
This war was won when the special interests slipped in certain changes to the barkruptcy code circa 2005. Prior to that, student loans could (like any other) be discharged. The government (not wanting to fund poor students) basically created these "off balance sheet" funding mechanisms through their extensions of loan guarantees. Again, this is very much the same thing that was done with the credit g'tees for the Mortgage GSAs.

What's even worse, is that the money just goes right to the colleges inflated overheads. No student ever "sees" the money from the loans. In this case, the cost of the schools just keeps going up so that the loans remain ~80pc of the cost of a degree. Now, how much money is in the Harvard Endowment? Stanford? Princeton? Massive amounts growing far in excess of inflation, and all Tax free. Why are these places even allowed to charge fees for tuition??

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by klenwell on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:30PM (#6226239)
#4 has also been abetted by the decline in state investment in higher education. A generation ago, I felt I got a great a deal paying $1000/quarter at a UC school. Registration for community college, where I started, was capped (capped!) at $50/semester and served a much more broader segment of society.

What's UC tuition nowadays? $3700 for resident tuition. $4900 when you include all the fees (which my $1000 figure did). Push everything forward 20 years and my parents would have no expectation to be making much more money now than they did then. I would be carrying more debt.

Pick your narrative for explaining what happened in the meantime. "Rich people demanding higher returns, enslave unsuspecting youth through their loan seller proxies" works for me.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by lmg643 on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:19PM (#6225788)
the core problem with college loans is that they are non-dischargeable. this means that no matter what the student's ultimate financial situation (long term unemployed, finances wiped out, etc) they still have to pay down the debt, and it can't be wiped out in bankruptcy.

This stands in contrast to virtually every kind of loan out there, which can be discharged (written off). As a result, there is less risk for the lender to give a loan to any old fool out there, regardless of the major they choose, regardless of the quality of school they go to, etc. anything that might correlate with the ability to pay it back.

you might say, great, they don't discriminate against liberal arts students at no-name schools. and that might be something that suffers if reforms were made. but perhaps that student might be better served if funding were hard to come by. complain now versus complain more later, kind of thing.

the great sin in the student loan market is the online degree mills, which target relatively vulnerable segments of the population, all funded by loans. for example: did you know that online universities cost almost the same as physical ones? that makes absolutely no sense when you think about it, but i don't think many of their students do. online only should be a fraction of the rate.

Perhaps the online university is a market to be disrupted. not unstructured MOOCs, but credentialed degree schools that are a fraction of the cost of current ones. i can see the ycombinator startup already.

and student loans should be dischargeable. it's the only fair thing to do.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by newbie12 on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:26PM (#6225824)
Student loans are unsecured, so if they could be discharged, the market rate would be akin to a credit card with a huge balance-- 15% to 20% a year in the current interest rate environment. Plus if they could be discharged, such action would become commonplace, a rite of passage at graduation.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by jellicle on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:01PM (#6226061)
That's a fine prediction. And yet, student loans were only made so hard to discharge due to changes in the law in 1996 and 2000. And prior to 1996 and 2000, student loans were offered at much less than the exorbitant rates you predict, and lenders made nice fat profits on them even so. And no, there was no significant abuse of the system - after all, there's always a judge involved in bankruptcy proceedings, who has the authority NOT to discharge debts if there's any reasonable prospect of them being paid off.

So... your prediction is wrong.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 7Figures2Commas on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:52PM (#6226357)
You cannot simply look backward to assess what would happen to interest rates on student loans going forward if a) the federal government significantly reduces its role in the market and b) allows for discharge of student loan debt in bankruptcy.

There are way too many factors that cannot be ignored, but that you choose to ignore. You need to look at the interest rate environment (which determines the cost of capital), banking regulations (which have changed dramatically in the past several years), the unemployment rate (you might have noticed we're in the slowest "recovery" since the Great Depression) and inflation-adjusted wage growth (hint: there basically is none), amongst other things.

Finally, you fail to note that the federal government was a participant in the student loan market well before 1996, so you cannot look at the history of private student loans without understanding that the government has influenced the market to varying degrees for some time.

If you want to assume that private lenders would rush to provide student loans at low rates at the same pace the federal government has in this economic environment and without the discharge restrictions currently in place, I'd love to introduce you to someone looking to sell you his 100 year J.C. Penney bonds. They yield over 11% and you can buy them at ~70 cents on the dollar - a great deal!

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by philwelch on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:41PM (#6226302)
Obviously there are zero confounding variables in the late 1990's and this is a perfectly controlled experiment.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by danielweber on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:47PM (#6225975)
such action would become commonplace, a rite of passage at graduation

Good.

Then people will stop lending students tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then schools will lower their prices.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 7Figures2Commas on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:56PM (#6226027)
> Then people will stop lending students tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars...

Let's make your comment a little more accurate:

Then the federal government, which is responsible for ~85% of the student loan market, will have to stop lending students tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and there will be no end to the cries that millions of young Americans are being denied a college education by well-to-do politicians who are out-of-touch with the economic realities of the average American.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by danielweber on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:02PM (#6226081)
Maybe for a year. After that schools will lower costs and everyone will be better off. Well, except for the school administrators and the construction people who build new stuff for them.

You don't make society's huge education bills go away just because the government is paying for them.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 7Figures2Commas on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:22PM (#6226192)
I think you're misreading my point, as I don't disagree at all. This problem is a government-created one, and it's bound to end badly, but it's important to be clear about who is doing the lending (it's not random "people") and what the "victims" of this system will complain about next.

We're in a lose-lose situation here. If student loans are plentiful, tuition costs rise and the debt must be secured by laws preventing discharge in bankruptcy, which leads to complaints about the cost of an education and debt levels. If student loans become less plentiful, the complaints will shift to focus on lack of access to education. Even if costs decrease substantially from today's levels, there is sadly a sizable market of would-be students who simply don't have the funds to go to college. Telling them they can't go to college and major in [insert wacky subject here] is political suicide for politicians.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by freyr on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:27PM (#6226227)
> there will be no end to the cries that millions of young Americans are being denied a college education by well-to-do politicians who are out-of-touch with the economic realities of the average American.

I'm not convinced it would happen as you say, since the crippling burden of college loan debt described in this article is increasingly familiar to many Americans. Once it begins affecting us personally, it becomes significantly harder to sweep these things under the rug.

No doubt, they would try their best, perhaps suggesting that reduced loans will result in higher taxes for average Americans and will shift the financial burden onto the older generations. That would be much easier (and more desirable, to special interests) than attempting to tackle the underlying issues that have resulted in hyperinflated tuition costs.

If only there were a way to broadcast the views of an intelligent, non-partison, and informed demographic to the average American household. Though I'm not sure anybody would tune in, as people find Fox News' fear-mongering and political divisiveness so entertaining.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by wmf on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:28PM (#6226583)
Fortunately, a more nuanced solution is possible. Want a STEM degree from an efficient school? Sign here for the loan. Want a degree in culture studies? No loan for you.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by ahomescu1 on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:01PM (#6226716)
What's the lender's incentive to do that? Their goal is to extract as much profit as possible from the borrower (even when we're talking about the government as lender).
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by wmf on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:11PM (#6226756)
I would say morality, but I realize that's an invalid argument. It seems like the government shouldn't be allowed to profit from issuing student loans (especially bad ones).
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by danielweber on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:33PM (#6226604)
That's better, but what you will end up with is colleges pricing their "good" degrees higher and higher until they have captured almost all of the wage surplus that workers get from going to college.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by dnautics on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:12PM (#6226765)
Then people will stop getting that degree, and the competitive salary for that degree will get higher.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by danielweber on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:08PM (#6227001)
If the NPV of the wage premium of becoming a botanist is $400K, colleges will charge $360K.

What, don't you want to become a botanist???

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by RougeFemme on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:45PM (#6225957)
But credit card debt can be discharged; why not student loan debt? The inability to discharge it is relatively recent, I believe - a compromise reached when the private banks were pulled out of the federal student loan loop. Also, if they could only be discharged during bankruptcy - as was the case before - there would be no concern about it becoming a rite of passage.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 7Figures2Commas on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:00PM (#6226058)
The official overall unemployment rate for recent college graduates has been as high as 9.4% in the past three years. There is still significant underemployment, and many employed college graduates are in roles that don't even require college degrees. Most of the post-2008 college graduates who are fortunate enough to be employed are projected to have lower earnings than their pre-Great Recession counterparts.

As I noted in another comment, one in five federal student loans outstanding is already in default or delayed default, and that number does obviously not include the number of loans that are in deferral still accumulating interest. Put simply, there are a lot of people out there who likely could and would consider filing for bankruptcy if it allowed them to discharge this debt.

We can't have it both ways: if you want everybody who wants a college education to be able to obtain one, the federal government has to be in the lending business and it has to be all but impossible for borrowers to discharge their debt.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by RyJones on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:59PM (#6226052)
Bankruptcy for newly-minted medical doctors and dentists used to be a rite of passage. The law was changed because of this. What comes around goes around.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 7Figures2Commas on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:44PM (#6225946)
Exactly. It amazes me how many people seem to believe that the solution to the student loan debt problem is to allow for discharge in bankruptcy.

Not only will this necessarily force lenders to increase the cost of these loans to borrowers, a lot of folks apparently don't understand that the biggest lender in this market is the federal government. Of the more than $1 trillion in student loans outstanding, about 85% have been provided by the federal government. Just over one in five federal student loans is already in default or delayed default. If the law is changed to permit discharge of these loans in bankruptcy, Student Loan Debt will become Mortgage Market 2.0.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by avenger123 on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:10PM (#6226133)
Why would this be a bad thing?

if loans are able to be discharged the federal government wouldn't be handing them out like free candy to anyone that wants it.

It's exactly that there is no downside for the government that the situation is the way it is.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 7Figures2Commas on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:28PM (#6226233)
The problem here is that we can't just use a magic wand to fix the situation. There is over $1 trillion in outstanding student debt that needs to be dealt with. Much of it is already going bad.

But the problem is bigger than the trillion dollars in debt you and I are already on the hook for. A lot of people like free candy, and if you take it away here, we'll go from "Tuition costs are too high, and I have too much debt!" to "Washington politicians are denying me an education!" The education lobby is strong and too many people are dependent on federal student loans for this to be "fixed" in a logical fashion. Everybody has been sold the idea that a college degree is a prerequisite for access to the middle class, and government-subsidized student loans are practically seen as an entitlement.

As much as one can hope for a better system, it isn't likely to come. We're well beyond the point of no return.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by ansible on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:58PM (#6226961)
As much as one can hope for a better system, it isn't likely to come. We're well beyond the point of no return.

Well, in so far as the people (and our government) who are already in debt, I can't disagree. We're in bad shape.

However, I do have hope. The online instruction revolution is still in its infancy, and I have much hope that quality education will be spread far and wide (at low cost). And that anyone with a reasonable amount of motivation can learn and grow and become more productive and wealthy as a result.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by toomuchtodo on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:35PM (#6226263)
My house was secured, had a 5% interest rate, and the bank lost over $150K when I walked away from it. People still default their mortgages when they're as little underwater as $10-15K, yet, the interest rate on mortgages has not shot up. Go figure.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by danielweber on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:36PM (#6226612)
I overall agree with you, but the vast majority of mortgages are being backed by the Federal government right now.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by dzeanah on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:33PM (#6225875)
> the great sin in the student loan market is the online degree mills, which target relatively vulnerable segments of the population, all funded by loans. for example: did you know that online universities cost almost the same as physical ones? that makes absolutely no sense when you think about it, but i don't think many of their students do. online only should be a fraction of the rate.

I believe part of this is the convenience issue. I finished my MBA 4 years ago, and at the time the school was pushing online classes pretty hard. And the online classes cost more than regular classes.

(Faculty also commented that they were pressured to give higher grades than they believed were earned because of the profit component, and few argued they learned better online. But they sure can be convenient.)

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by nsxwolf on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:45PM (#6226903)
I'm genuinely curious about the prospects of disrupting the online university market.

The question "What makes a degree valuable?" is at the heart of its success. All these companies that demand a four year degree - what are their criteria? When they see that someone got their degree at a very inexpensive online school, will that hurt the perception of value?

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by BWStearns on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:15PM (#6226780)
I would be interested to see if an App Academy model for a credentialed institution could work. Small deposit payment upfront, and a period of return dependent on salary. Definitely changes the incentive structure for the better.
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by wayne_h on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:54PM (#6226020)
This was caused by government unintended consequences....

Some doctors graduated from med school with $100ks in loans. So they immediately filed for bankruptcy and cleared the debt. After a few years of work they were back in the bucks and debt-free.

The loan industry had congress write some new laws (was it 2008 ish?). The package clamped down on debt-collectors calling at all hours. It also eliminated clearing college loans with BK.

The loan industry celebrated - nothing like sure bet! Indentured servitude - Yahoo! They started giving away loans like candy.

Then the schools noticed all the free-flowing money and joined the party.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by dragonwriter on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:59PM (#6226047)
I don't see the unintended consequences: financial companies asked Congress to write a law for the express purpose of insulating those companies from risk and increasing their profits and the results were that (1) borrowers couldn't discharge debts in bankruptcy, making the financial services companies more money, and (2) increased profitability led to more loans, helping drive up tuition costs increasing the average loan amount and making the financial services companies even more money.

Doesn't seem to be unintended consequences at all.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by 7Figures2Commas on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:02PM (#6226083)
You do realize that ~85% of the student loan debt outstanding - which amounts to more than $800 million - belongs to the federal government, right?
Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by nickff on Friday August 16, 2013 @01:47PM (#6225568)
The institutions are the ones receiving the benefits of the subsidized loans; the students bear the long term costs of the 'student loans'.

"Where the supply curve is more inelastic than the demand curve, producers bear more of the tax and receive more of the subsidy than consumers as the difference between the price producers receive and the initial market price is greater than the difference borne by consumers." [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_taxes_and_subsidies_o...

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by jseliger on Friday August 16, 2013 @01:55PM (#6225622)
Part of the reason prices have gone up so much is that credit has become so easy.

"Part of the reason," yes, but take a look at Why Does College Cost so Much? by Archibald and Feldman (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-College-Cost-Much/dp/01997445...). Their short answer is "Baumol's cost disease. The long answer is the book.

Re:Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal by rhizome on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:29PM (#6225850)
Part of the reason prices have gone up so much is that credit has become so easy.

Think of it as a perverse incentive for collusion between the schools and finance providers to milk the students through the mechanism of easier credit.