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Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by a3_nm on Thursday July 25, 2013 @12:42PM (#6103335)
> Public-key cryptography as we know it today may be rapidly approaching the end of its useful lifespan.

No evidence in the article substantiates this bold statement.

- "pressuring major Internet firms to provide their "master" SSL keys for government surveillance purposes": this demonstrates a weakness of centralized public-key infrastructures, it does not follow that public-key cryptography is doomed. (See: web of trust.)

- wiretaps, snooping, etc.: everyone is welcome to grab a copy of the ciphertext, this does not prove that cryptography is futile -- quite the contrary.

- "concerns about the security of widely used cipher algorithms and a range of other associated exploits": vague.

- "it is prudent to at least assume that intelligence agencies around the globe may still be working several steps ahead of public "state of the art" in crypto tech": unfalsifiable.

- "forced the hands of chip manufacturers to include "special goodies" for surveillance purposes": I am willing to fear deliberate plausibly deniable weaknesses on accelerated hardware implementation of crypto primitives, e.g., PRNGs, but it seems very hard to believe that implementations of public-key crypto using general purpose instructions could be somehow identified by the CPU and somehow tampered with in a way which would be non-obvious somehow.

- "when governments really want to target someone, they'll find some way to compromise the associated computers directly -- either through phishing or other malware attacks, or via in-person "black bag" jobs to physically alter systems as they might feel appropriate": humans are the weakest part of cryptosystems, and if they have physical access then they win; nothing new here.

In conclusion:

> I believe it would be fully appropriate for us to be considering alternative methodologies for data protection that are sufficiently outside the existing public-key "box"

Public-key cryptography is a tool. It certainly does not form, in itself, a full "methodology for data protection", but nothing in the article justifies that has lost any usefulness in its current form.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by chongli on Thursday July 25, 2013 @02:24PM (#6104024)
Public-key cryptography is a tool.

Yeah, I believe the author mistakenly conflated public-key cryptography with the public-key infrastructure (PKI). One is a technology and the other is a set of policies built around a trust model. While the technology remains sound, our confidence in the policies may be weakening. To prepare for this, we may need to look at alternative trust models such as web of trust.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by toddsiegel on Thursday July 25, 2013 @04:26PM (#6104742)
Agreed. Public-key cryptography is fine. Entrusting third parties to protect your privacy is dying.

This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately. Users need to take more responsibility for guarding their own privacy. I think there are a lots of business opportunities here: easy to use tools that keep control entirely in Alice's and Bob's hands and public key cryptography is certainly part of the solution.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by christo on Thursday July 25, 2013 @09:37PM (#6106115)
The fact that the agencies have to apply pressure to obtain keys proves that the crypto is working.

Therefore, if you have, use and keep secret your own keys, the best-resourced intruders cannot practicably get your data.

Of course, http://xkcd.com/538/

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by ctdonath on Thursday July 25, 2013 @10:46PM (#6106284)
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by state on Thursday July 25, 2013 @05:04PM (#6104969)
I've been thinking quite a lot about that exact thing as well. There must be a way to build great commercial tools that are also truly secure. I'd love to discuss further. Contact info in my profile.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by e3pi on Thursday July 25, 2013 @11:43PM (#6106452)
> state 6 hours ago | link | parent | flag

> I've been thinking quite a lot about that exact thing as well. There must be a way to build great commercial tools that are also truly secure. I'd love to discuss further. Contact info in my profile.

'state', to solicit this collaboration, would it not be prudent to init a new HN account under a different name?

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by Kenzo99 on Thursday July 25, 2013 @02:06PM (#6103899)
I would say that government attempts to force data to be handed over reinforce the strength of public key encryption. Since Public Key made its debut, we've known that the only real actual threat to the system was an incredible advance in the realm of factoring. That has not happened.

This article talks about the many ways public key can be circumvented, but offers no insight into a mathematical breakthrough. Thus, there will remain a way to encrypt your data, you just need to make sure your keys will always be safe.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by rdtsc on Thursday July 25, 2013 @11:23PM (#6106381)
> No evidence in the article substantiates this bold statement.

The implication is simple and frightening -- classify it as munitions and making illegal to possess.

Remember that Constitution also allows one to have arms. Well arms in 1700s was rifle and that was a top weapon whether for government infantry or dissenting militants. What happened, you can still own arms but you can't own ICBMs, air-2-surface missiles, attack helicopters, nuclear devices etc. So as you can see just because something seems so inalienable, it can still be easily taken (not saying use of public crypto is a Constitutional right, just making a comparison between obvious rights easily stripped away).

Not only that, many country do make it illegal to have crypto software. It is not an outlandish proposition.

It won't take much to drum up support. Just need 3-4 high profile cases of: terrorists or child molesters using PGP and Joe Sixpack would be pretty easily convinced to call his representative and ask him to vote to make such "enabling tools" illegal.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by anigbrowl on Thursday July 25, 2013 @11:53PM (#6106477)
The implication is simple and frightening -- classify it as munitions and making illegal to possess.

You know we went through this in the 1990s and PGP was declassified as a munition, yes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_in...

Before taking the claims at face value it's good to do a bit of background research. Also, I generally find anything where every paragraph consists only of a single sentence can safely be ignored.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by rdtsc on Friday July 26, 2013 @12:09AM (#6106539)
Exactly that was my point. It was only 20 year ago. It was declassified as munition it can be reclassified as munitions pretty easily as well.

> Before taking the claims at face value it's good to do a bit of background research.

It also good to read and understand the whole comment before replying. I didn't say it is illegal (in US, it is in other countries) I said it is not an unreasonably hard step to take.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by a3_nm on Friday July 26, 2013 @05:41AM (#6107340)
> It was declassified as munition it can be reclassified as munitions pretty easily as well.

As any browser has to integrate some sort of public-key cryptography support to use HTTPS, and as HTTPS is pretty useful for things like sending your credit card number over an insecure channel, I very much doubt that the genie could be put back in the bottle now.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by anigbrowl on Friday July 26, 2013 @02:33AM (#6106917)
I read your whole comment, I just don't agree with you. It would be wholly impractical to reclassify PGP as munitions considering its ubiquitous availability. It got declassified in the first place because there was strong legal precedent supporting the publication of the algorithm in book form. I think your fears are unreasonable.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by Retric on Thursday July 25, 2013 @03:52PM (#6104563)
All forms of public key encryption require proof that Alice or Bob are who they say they are or you can setup a man in the middle attack. Without a public key athority to Safely provide the correct public key your stuck with manual key exchanges which can work, but does not scale. If the government has the public key authority's private key they can spoof them and setup man in the middle attacks easily.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by antihero on Thursday July 25, 2013 @07:08PM (#6105540)
Web of trust. So say I meet someone visiting from the US that I trust, he gets my public key and signs it, and vice versa, then I can guarantee to people who have my pubkey that the one I'm sending them is his one.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by Retric on Thursday July 25, 2013 @07:55PM (#6105752)
Web of trust has massive scaling issues. The most obvious being a rooted devices can quickly compromise the network and your talking about a huge attack surface if your willing to trust more than one link in the chain.

Edit: Realistically if you want secure peer to peer communications your protocalls has to survive when 40+% of peers are compromised and well good luck with that at scale. This seems like a reasonable problem but you also need to be able to revoke certificats.

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by tekromancr on Thursday July 25, 2013 @09:09PM (#6106028)
What about some sort of web of trust model that has a notion of confidence. Lets say I have four people; Alice, Bob, Carol, and me. I know both Bob and Carol, but I don't know Alice directly. Since both Bob and Carol vouch for Alice, I can be fairly sure that Alice is Alice. Now lets say that Bob has reason to believe that Alice has been compromised, so he revokes his link to Alice. Now I have am less confident about Alice, because I have one link to Alice instead of two. Or is this how Web of trust works?
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by zanny on Friday July 26, 2013 @02:06AM (#6106857)
This is how bitcoin works. The network will adopt whatever the majority agree on in terms what transactions happened. As a result, you can't man-in-the-middle bitcoin and it remains secure even without centralized key signers, because you can increase your confidence by confirming a transaction with as many nodes as you want. This is how you validate a local block chain - you connect to enough other bitcoin clients in the swarm such that at some confidence threshold you agree your chain is the correct one. The usual number is 8 independent connections in the bitcoin network (both for blockchain verification and confirmation of transaction acceptance) because the probability of getting 8 bad actors agreeing to the same fraudulent transaction is mathematically demonstrated to be sufficiently low.

Note: that is (besides the 51% attack vector) the primary reason the bigger parts of the crypto scene won't call bitcoin truly secure. Because there is still a risk of insecurity, it is just abysmally small, and disrupting one node doesn't mean the degradation of the web of trust because as long as the majority still agrees on the correct state of affairs (and as a false block chain diverges it becomes more expensive to maintain that public facing fork to disrupt other clients).

Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by Retric on Friday July 26, 2013 @10:35AM (#6108412)
An important point about bitcoin for this discussion. It in no way authenticates who anyone is beyond there public key, it just keeps track of what someone does with those keys. Aka I did this work which I signed, i want to move a bitcoin to this act which I signed.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by jedbrown on Thursday July 25, 2013 @08:50PM (#6105967)
You make it sound like Web of Trust does not include revocation.
[deleted]
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by mrt0mat0 on Thursday July 25, 2013 @01:06PM (#6103488)
which time?
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by Kenzo99 on Thursday July 25, 2013 @02:50PM (#6104210)
Random time, of course.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by antihero on Thursday July 25, 2013 @06:59PM (#6105501)
I mean, what's to stop people forming their own signing authorities and distributing the public keys via a trusted method as we do anyway?
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by mortenjorck on Thursday July 25, 2013 @07:42PM (#6105682)
The fact that neither you nor I have heard of the projects already doing this.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by zallarak on Friday July 26, 2013 @02:08AM (#6106864)
You are totally nitpicking on semantics. Obviously the general concept of public key encryption is not at risk.
Re:As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Publi... by jpttsn on Friday July 26, 2013 @03:58AM (#6107098)
"As Feds Demand the Keys, Preparing for the Death of Public-Key Encryption"

Obviously.