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Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by Brushfire on Sunday June 16, 2013 @01:49PM (#5889219)
This is pretty amusing, but they've just made a classic apologists mistake.

Either they need all this access and funding to surveil a large number of dangerous people, or they dont need either to surveil such a small number of people. If it only resulted in 300 phone numbers to track, then sure, maybe the privacy violations weren't as bad (hypothetically). But that argument then puts the whole program at a ridiculous cost to threat ratio, and should be shutdown because it isn't effective at all and is a waste of taxpayer money.

Lose, Lose NSA - You're either violating our liberties or wasting our money.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by brown9-2 on Sunday June 16, 2013 @03:13PM (#5889506)
I think a large part of the picture is being lost in the title of this submission.

It's not that the NSA's entire mission has boiled down to monitoring 300 phone numbers worldwide.

What is being stated is that "[l]ast year, fewer than 300 phone numbers were checked against the database of millions of U.S. phone records gathered daily by the NSA". (http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2021199412_nsatechd...)

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by Brushfire on Sunday June 16, 2013 @03:35PM (#5889592)
I guess my point was that if they only use it 300 times, is it really worth having the program around given the combo of costs both in privacy and dollars?

Of course there is more at play here, but they should be selling how many terrorist attacks they avoided, now how many people they snooped.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by vlasev on Sunday June 16, 2013 @04:48PM (#5889908)
Would you know WHICH 300 phones to check without the program?
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by mattnewton on Sunday June 16, 2013 @07:36PM (#5890541)
This. The privacy cost is relevant and not easily quantifiable.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by mpyne on Sunday June 16, 2013 @03:02PM (#5889470)
Are you saying that the U.S. has more than ~300 people overseas actively working on terror plots at any given time?

You can't represent cost:threat ratio as dollars per person tracked. The major reason for why the program exists is to detect and break-up one-off major terrorist plots so even if the NSA was detecting all worldwide terror plans against the U.S. the number of people they were tracking would never be very high.

This is what all the people saying that the risk of dying from terrorism is so completely low have been reminding us, remember?

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by tomrod on Sunday June 16, 2013 @10:43PM (#5891131)
> You can't represent cost:threat ratio as dollars per person tracked

Sure you can. If you're only using the program to track 300 people, the average cost is the total cost divided by 300.

As you point out, there is a very small risk of dying from a terrorist plot is low. So if we're spending so much money and only tracking 300 people, there is clearly a problem.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by comefrom10 on Sunday June 16, 2013 @07:17PM (#5890479)
Perhaps if the US government wants to protect us from terrorism it should stop acting like a terrorist organization abroad.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by mpyne on Sunday June 16, 2013 @07:54PM (#5890610)
What was the excuse for 9/11 then? I seem to recall it was nothing more "terroristic" than having U.S. forces deployed in Saudi Arabia, at the request of that nation.

But let me guess, victim blaming is OK, as long as the victims are Americans?

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by threeseed on Sunday June 16, 2013 @04:44PM (#5889893)

    But that argument then puts the whole program at a ridiculous cost to threat ratio.
Sorry but this is just nonsense.

Major terrorist acts e.g. 9/11 have a devastating impact on the economy. It results in a country-wide drop in consumer spending, consumer confidence, business spending, business confidence, hiring etc. As well as locally in areas like tourism. It alone accounted for a 1.1% drop in the third quarter GDP in 2011.

As an example in NYC alone 430,000 jobs and 2.8 billion in wages were lost in the 3 months after 9/11. Which in turn results in a big drop in the tax collected.

Then finally there is the after effects. No 9/11 and there would have been no costly invasion into Iraq/Afghanistan which has cost trillions of dollars and an obscene number of lives. Major terrorist acts always demand a response by the public.

So out of all the things the government does protecting its citizens seems like something that will always be "worth the money".

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by betterunix on Sunday June 16, 2013 @08:03PM (#5890635)
"No 9/11 and there would have been no costly invasion into Iraq/Afghanistan which has cost trillions of dollars and an obscene number of lives"

I have some doubts about us not going to war had there been no terrorist attack. Perhaps it would have been in a different country or continent, but there has been military action under every administration since Eisenhower. I have this sneaky suspicion that the war in Iraq would have happened regardless of any terrorist attack. I would even go as far as to say that the war in Iraq would have happened under a hypothetical Gore administration.

"So out of all the things the government does protecting its citizens seems like something that will always be "worth the money"."

Assuming, of course, that this program has accomplished anything. We are still waiting to see what details will be declassified. It is not enough that supporters of the program claim terrorist plots were stopped; we need to know (a) if the program was actually important to stopping those plots and (b) if those plots were realistic to begin with.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by D_Alex on Sunday June 16, 2013 @11:20PM (#5891240)
>Major terrorist acts e.g. 9/11 have a devastating impact on the economy.

Citation needed!

9/11 did indeed have a devastating impact on the economy - because of the very poorly thought out response of the Bush administration.

On the other hand, Norway's response to their worst ever act of terrorism was as follows:

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg pledged to do everything to ensure the country's core values were not undermined. "The Norwegian response to violence is more democracy, more openness and greater political participation," he said. (from: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/20363519819/one-ye... )

Do you think the US would be better off today if they adopted such a policy - instead of the Patriot Act?

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by bdcravens on Monday June 17, 2013 @12:16AM (#5891402)
To be fair, some of the post-9/11 policies did have an impact. However, don't discount the real effects the attack itself had, before the knee even had a chance to jerk.

I was at Sabre (spin-off of American Airlines, owner of Travelocity, creator of travel agency software) at the time, in HR's development group. (Actually that group had been acquired by EDS, but same group, same role, different name on the paycheck) Within a trading day of the attack, they lost 50% in market cap. We went from massive projects to calculate performance based compensation to doing it on a simple spreadsheet. Many lost their jobs, including me.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by stretchwithme on Sunday June 16, 2013 @05:04PM (#5889986)
There are many threats to human life. There is a cost associated with preventing each life lost. Obviously it makes sense to consider it.

We could have never allowed foreign tourists into the country. That has a cost associated with it, right? That would prevented Saudis from going to flight school and booking those flights, right? Shouldn't protecting lives be before every other consideration?

No, we have to balance things. Protecting life can not prevent us from living our lives. Not everything the government chooses to do is worth the price.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by rayiner on Sunday June 16, 2013 @06:22PM (#5890274)
If we're going with a cost/benefit analysis, it should be noted that the NSA accessing data that AT&T, Google, Facebook, etc, already collect is just about the cheapest sort of counter-measure you could have to terrorism. The "good old fashioned police work" that people keep suggesting would be far more expensive and invasive.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by stretchwithme on Sunday June 16, 2013 @06:40PM (#5890351)
Then let people volunteer for it in exchange for lower taxes. If the impact is truly minor, there should be many takers and much savings.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by rayiner on Sunday June 16, 2013 @07:05PM (#5890437)
That makes no sense.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 16, 2013 @11:18PM (#5891237)
What makes no sense is assuming that all of the data collection being discussed has prevented a single genuine attack.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by stretchwithme on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @12:05AM (#5903687)
Oh, they told us it has. Shouldn't that be good enough? They've been open and honest so far.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by threeseed on Sunday June 16, 2013 @06:46PM (#5890372)
Are you answering the right person ?

Because I was specifically talking about the costs associated with terrorist acts. And that preventing them has significant and widespread benefits to the economy. It's pretty clear that focusing just on ROI alone this program is easily worth the price.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by stretchwithme on Saturday June 22, 2013 @08:23PM (#5925717)
And just banning foreigners is free. The ROI is infinite on free things that work. But ROI is not the only consideration.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by AnthonyMouse on Sunday June 16, 2013 @08:04PM (#5890638)
The economic numbers you're listing are pretty clearly dwarfed by the amount we've been spending on anti-terrorism.

And nobody can take you seriously trying to shovel the excessive amount of money spent on anti-terrorism (or, as for Iraq, not on anti-terrorism) into the cost of a terrorist act and then trying to use that as justification for spending money on anti-terrorism. If we spent half the GDP on anti-terrorism after 9/11 you would be claiming 9/11 cost us half the GDP and that therefore justifies spending half the GDP on it. It's circular logic.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by gus_massa on Sunday June 16, 2013 @09:02PM (#5890812)
As far as I know, Iraq was not involved in the terrorist attack of 9/11. Why should the cost of the invasion into Iraq be consider in the damage caused by 9/11?
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by mattnewton on Sunday June 16, 2013 @07:34PM (#5890536)
Who says the cost is purely economic? What is the value of the first and fourth amendments to americans?
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by mpyne on Sunday June 16, 2013 @07:59PM (#5890624)
Intercepting messages doesn't violate the First Amendment.

Intercepting messages with either "reasonable" means or "unreasonable means + probable cause warrant" also doesn't violate the Fourth Amendment.

So I wouldn't necessarily make your sole complaint about the legality of the program, as it may very well soon be both legal and Constitutional.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by AnthonyMouse on Sunday June 16, 2013 @08:10PM (#5890659)
>Intercepting messages doesn't violate the First Amendment.

What about all that stuff about chilling effects and anonymous speech?

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by mpyne on Sunday June 16, 2013 @08:49PM (#5890767)
You mean like how the KKK and WBC were brutally subjugated by the U.S. government for their hateful speech? That kind of thing?
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by AnthonyMouse on Monday June 17, 2013 @12:23AM (#5891424)
Invoking the KKK is the First Amendment equivalent of Godwin's Law.

We let idiots have their stupid rallies because it's not the government's job to decide who gets to speak, and because the laws you would like to use against the KKK or WBC end up getting used against Malcolm X or Occupy protestors at a different time or in a different part of the country.

And just to remind everyone, the reason we're worried about chilling effects and anonymous speech is that you don't want the first person to write anything challenging corrupt power structures to get indicted with "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" charges backstopped by prolific surveillance, or have their house burned down by ideological opponents who use government powers to discover dissidents and are subsequently never prosecuted. Not only does that allow the injustice of corrupt power retaliating against activists for good, there is a real risk that the retaliation will be an effective deterrent to future activists.

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by dinkumthinkum on Sunday June 16, 2013 @08:57PM (#5890793)
I mean, you're being a little pedantic. Presumably, Americans expect the Constitution and all of our "fancy laws" to protect them from living in a police state.
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by mpyne on Sunday June 16, 2013 @09:27PM (#5890895)
Presumably Americans don't care that much about Internet surveillance, given the representatives they have elected and the big giant "meh" that has come everytime an NSA or FBI story about aforementioned surveillance has been leaked.

Which is more risky for police state purposes, a PRISM system that requires at least corporate legal review for specific individuals, or a system that would tap into all Internet traffic?

Now, which of those have we known about for a longer time?

Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 16, 2013 @11:16PM (#5891228)
You wouldn't happen to be in the market for a tiger-repelling rock, would you?
Re:Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated by saraid216 on Sunday June 16, 2013 @10:46PM (#5891144)
On the other hand, 9/11 apparently resulted in a four-week drop in the UK suicide rate.