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Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by marshray on Thursday May 16, 2013 @06:08PM (#5721511)
This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated:

Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this.

Stick to your schedule. It will either work out or it won't.

If it doesn't, no hard feelings.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by pud on Thursday May 16, 2013 @08:53PM (#5722157)
Disagree.

If you've truly lost faith in the founders and business -- which you have -- you should leave now & cut your losses. It's not going to work out, regardless of salary.

As for how to make money after you leave -- get a job or find consulting work. Then jump back into starting a business when you're ready again.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by AdamN on Friday May 17, 2013 @04:23AM (#5723239)
Don't leave until you've clarified your equity stake and dotted all your Is and crossed all of your Ts. However, you should then cut your losses and get out of there. Half of a job is with whom you work and you've learned a great lesson with 'idiot' detection. I've worked with assholes recently, and they can actually be amazing assets at a company, but about 10 years ago I stopped working with idiots and I haven't looked back.

I'm starting a cloud company in Nairobi if you want to do something totally crazy ....

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by psionski on Friday May 17, 2013 @05:14AM (#5723369)
How are you going to make people pay for the clouds? Is this government-sponsored? Otherwise it sounds really cool, I've seen such climate improvement projects before, but I thought they require a huge scale (entire or several countries), can a single company really make a significant impact?
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by psionski on Friday May 17, 2013 @07:18AM (#5723647)
After seeing some downvotes, etc., I'm starting to think you mean a hosting company... Maybe the mention of Nairobi, Kenya made me think of clouds-as-in-water-vapor :)
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by elyase on Friday May 17, 2013 @08:01AM (#5723758)
If this is a joke, it is well over my head,;-)
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by lotsofcows on Friday May 17, 2013 @05:03AM (#5723343)
Sod the legals, walk away, write it up to experience, re-tailor your CV and suck up a "proper" job (try looking for smaller companies through friends) for a year.

Talk to the people you meet and a new startup will come your way before that year's out.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by richmok on Friday May 17, 2013 @07:54AM (#5723733)
AdamN, am in Nairobi and would love to chat concerning this. You can ping me on email mokua83ke [at] google's email service.
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by unreal37 on Thursday May 16, 2013 @10:02PM (#5722327)
Pud knows an f'd company when he sees one. ;)
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by nashequilibrium on Thursday May 16, 2013 @11:11PM (#5722503)
I agree totally but i will add one more option based on this quote "I believe in our product, but I don't believe in our business model." If this is the case and assuming u have nailed a customer pain point down since its been 15 months, i would suggest that you leave and execute the same idea with the business model you believe will work. If you and the VC are on the same page and these guys don't have much tech experience then they are clearly failing to execute and no salary, health insurance, free lunch is going to make you happy. Since at the end, they are still driving you into a ditch. If no other VC's want to bite then scrap the idea.

Since you already are doing consulting on the side, i think you may be able to squeeze 3 months in on trying to get funding, just make every action Fast, Focused and Fundamental to your objectives. Godspeed!

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by owenfi on Friday May 17, 2013 @12:11AM (#5722655)
It seems like you would be opening yourself up to lawsuits if you take this course of action and are successful. Not that I might not do it if I believed in something, but I'd want to be very careful.

If you're out of money it might be hard to pull this off as I've heard seeking funding is a full time job (or two, as your cofounders have shown) so the product has to be mostly good to go (for at least the time being) if that's going to work.

Using the product you already built with company funds is almost definitely off limits (IANL), so I'm not quite sure how that strategy could be feasible.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by gingerlime on Friday May 17, 2013 @02:25AM (#5722977)
and these are also family members. Doing business with family can be very tricky, let alone when you try to create competition with your own family...
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by smoyer on Friday May 17, 2013 @06:32AM (#5723528)
As for the time you've invested ... That's the fallacy of sunk costs. If you'll never get x back, how would you get x+y back?
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by neltnerb on Thursday May 16, 2013 @08:11PM (#5722032)
To not comment on the rest, since it's highly dependent on your personal situation:

"I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now."

This is a very dangerous way to think about it. This is your life you're investing here.

Perhaps to break it down to oversimplified but still valuable math:

(probability of success)*(personal outcome) = expected outcome

If you think they have a 10% chance of succeeding, but if they do they'll be legitimately worth $10M of which you'll get 30%, then the expectation value is $300k.

Do that calculation based on the numbers that you personally feel are correct. Compare to what you'd be making doing something else. Take into account that you've already worked on it for a year and a half, which is probably at least worth $100k. More since you may never get it.

If the project can't even meet that minimal standard for being worth your time, then you're unlikely to even make what you deserve for your time, much less receive a reward commensurate with your risk.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by benjamincburns on Thursday May 16, 2013 @08:49PM (#5722144)
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by eaglej on Thursday May 16, 2013 @10:54PM (#5722463)
Better yet, here's a very relevant piece that tells you how to overcome the mental impediment to rationally considering situations with sunk costs involved. Basically, think about what you have to gain by changing things, rather than what you've already lost.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/how-to-wal...

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by danielweber on Thursday May 16, 2013 @11:07PM (#5722493)
I remember working at a start-up and realizing what a huge portion of my personal wealth was stuck in it, and that I couldn't just quit.

Eventually I did quit, and everything was okay.

If this is your second job ever, then it's natural that you feel like this job represents a huge portion of your life's work. That's only true in that it represents your life's work up to that point. When you are 60, this will be something you see as a tiny portion of your work life. Eventually when you list the things you are most technically proud of (which you said you are), this probably won't make the top 5, because you will make so many more awesome things over the course of your career.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by blowski on Friday May 17, 2013 @12:32AM (#5722701)
There was a play on Radio 4 a while back, where a guy orders a sandwich but it never arrives. Deciding that leaving would mean wasting the hour he's already waited, he stays in the cafe for years, waiting for the sandwich to arrive.

Read 'Eric Ries - The Lean Startup'. Your time at this startup is not necessarily wasted, if you've learnt stuff, networked, and somehow helped you get your next job.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by josso on Friday May 17, 2013 @05:29AM (#5723404)
> I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now.

I'm currently reading through "What I wish I knew when I was 20" by Tina Seelig (more entrepreneur-y than expected, but pretty good) and this exact topic is discussed in Chapter 5.

> […] “even great ideas require a tremendous amount of work to reach a successful outcome, it’s incredibly hard to know when to keep pushing on a problem, hoping for a breakthrough, and when to walk away. We all know that persistence is to be admired, but when does it become foolish to continue working on something that’s never going to fly? Gil Penchina, CEO of Wikia, describes the dilemma wonderfully: “If you throw gasoline on a log, all you get is a wet log. But if you throw gasoline on a small flame, you get an inferno.” That is, it’s important to know whether you’re putting energy into something that has the potential to pay off. This is one of life’s biggest challenges. We often stay in dead-end situations way too long. This occurs when companies commit to a doomed product or project, or when individuals stay with jobs or in relationships that make them miserable, hoping the situation will improve. So how do you know when to quit? This is a huge philosophical question. It’s always a mammoth challenge to separate your desire to make something work from the reality of the probability that it will work. Of course, the more you put into a project, the more likely it is to succeed. But some efforts will never pan out, no matter how much time, money, or sweat is injected. The most scientific answer I’ve found is, listen to your gut and look at your alternatives. Essentially, you have to negotiate honestly with yourself. Do you have the fortitude to push through the problems in front of you to reach a successful outcome, or are you better off taking another path?

> So quitting is hard—but it’s even harder to do it well. I’ve seen people quit gracefully and others quit so clumsily that they leave a huge crater in their wake. As discussed in detail in chapter 8, you are likely to bump into the same people again and again in life, often in unexpected ways. This alone is reason enough to make sure that when you quit, you do so with careful thought about the consequences for those around you. Besides the impact that quitting gracefully might have on you later, it is just the right thing to do. You can never rationalize quitting in such a way that you hurt your colleagues, friends, or former business.

> A colleague told me about his assistant, who was doing a terrific job. He gave her great reviews and spent a lot of time talking with her about her career path within his group. She made it clear that ultimately she hoped to move into a different field, and my colleague was supportive of this. In fact, he told her he would be delighted to serve as a reference for her anytime. With this as a backdrop, my colleague couldn’t have been more surprised when his assistant came in one day and gave two weeks’ notice. The team was in the midst of a huge project, the deadline three weeks away. She was going to leave one week before the project was completed, putting the entire team in a very difficult position. My colleague asked her several times if she would consider staying one more week to help him get to the end of the project, which involved dozens of people directly and several thousands indirectly. She refused, saying, “I know you’re going to be unhappy that I’m leaving no matter when I go, so I decided to do what I want.”

> My colleague felt as though he’d been kicked in the stomach. It was nearly impossible to fill in the holes she left during the last week of the project, and everyone worked around the clock to try to fill the void. All those who worked with her will remember that decision. Despite the fact that she did a terrific job while she was with them, the damage she did to her reputation during the last weeks of her employment dwarfed all the positive things she had done in prior years. In sharp contrast, I’ve seen others quit jobs with remarkable style. Even if they were leaving because the job wasn’t a good match, the grace with which they left made such a positive impression that everyone involved would be pleased to give them a glowing recommendation at any time in the future. They provided enough notice to fill any gaps, they took the time to put their work in order so that someone else could pick up where they left off, and they even offered to help with the transition. These folks are heroes. They mastered the art of quitting well, and used their skill to turn a bad situation into something positive.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by geoffw8 on Thursday May 16, 2013 @07:07PM (#5721792)
Great way to think about this. These kinds of problems can feel SO huge... until that first pay cheque hits. Then life becomes simple again

Source: been there, lots

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by shortstuffsushi on Thursday May 16, 2013 @10:48PM (#5722447)
Well, right, but what if that payment never comes? At what point do you say, "I will not make money here, I need to get a job to support myself?" When the company closes its doors (supposing it even has an office)?
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by geoffw8 on Sunday May 19, 2013 @07:17AM (#5732552)
Hey - my comment was based on him having that epiphany and getting a job!
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by ritchiea on Thursday May 16, 2013 @08:03PM (#5722011)
Indeed. People generally understand when you tell them "I can't afford to live without a paycheck."

Ignore the rest of the things you're worried about, don't say anything about serious doubts or that you think they are idiots, just let them know it's not a viable for you to continue to work without pay. Keep it simple.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by peteretep on Thursday May 16, 2013 @06:46PM (#5721682)
I did something very similar, but with different parameters. You'd have better off saying "90 days", but you've been sticking it out a while now.

If you're anything like me, this incredibly stressful time will end up materially pushing your career forward in the future.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by jneal on Friday May 17, 2013 @09:24AM (#5724135)
I've actually been in a very similar situation. I asked for the salary knowing they couldn't pay it and figuring it was my easiest way out without feeling like the bad guy. Hey, I just needed money and they couldn't pay it...Low and behold they unexpectedly accepted my offer. Good news, right? Not really...I wasn't happy, and after getting the salary I felt even more stuck than I was before. Get out while you still can.
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by desireco42 on Thursday May 16, 2013 @09:35PM (#5722265)
I believe this is excellent advice you got here. Nothing much to add but that you take your girlfriend and go somewhere for at least a week or so, to clear your mind. Go to some national park or something like that where you would be disconnected, talk to her and not just about you, hear what she is seeing and thinking.

I am pretty certain when you come back you would know much better what to do.

Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by msrpotus on Thursday May 16, 2013 @07:57PM (#5721990)
Just to echo this: I was in a similar situation and did this (though without asking for healthcare) and it was the best decision I made throughout the course of the experience. Everything crystalized pretty quickly that they didn't have a plan to pay me and I was able to get out without burning through the rest of my bank account.
Re:Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help by jakejake on Friday May 17, 2013 @03:57AM (#5723191)
The bottom line is that we all have bills to pay. Get a consulting or contract job and continue with the venture in your spare time until either the founders raise enough investment money to pay your salary or you decide they won't be able to pull it off.

Be open and honest - just tell them that you need a salary. Going a year and a half with no salary is not something anybody has a right to expect from you unless you're already wealthy.