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Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by NelsonMinar on Monday April 22, 2013 @10:56AM (#5589504)
The primary complaint here is users don't know what to do with a .webp when they download their photos. And support does seem limited; it looks like Photoshop needs a plugin, for instance. But Facebook could solve that specific problem by having a real "Download as JPG" button while still using WebP for inline images.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by dfxm12 on Monday April 22, 2013 @11:42AM (#5589833)
Why does Facebook have to do anything here? Isn't reducing file sizes and load times the right thing to do for them? Shouldn't the burden fall on image viewers/editors?

If the format beats out PNG & JPG, the industry will follow and image editors will get built in support.

Reducing file size is more important than short term convenience here.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by masklinn on Monday April 22, 2013 @11:54AM (#5589917)
> Why does Facebook have to do anything here?

Because they broke the web for their users.

> Reducing file size is more important than short term convenience here.

Not for users, no. The only gain here is facebook's bandwidth costs, at the expense (and inconvenience) of its users.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by cbhl on Monday April 22, 2013 @12:37PM (#5590225)
> Because they broke the web for their users.

If they're right-clicking the image to download the photo, it's already broken -- Facebook serves a heavily re-compressed JPEG by default. You need to use the menu option to download the original.

I wouldn't hire the graphic designer quoted in the article; they should be able to see the compression artifacts that Facebook leaves in the images they upload, and be aware that they should be using flickr or dropbox or another photo storage service instead.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by w1ntermute on Monday April 22, 2013 @12:25PM (#5590144)
> Because they broke the web for their users.

No, they didn't. The web works fine. They can browse it without any issues. The problems occur when they're trying to do stuff on their local machines.

> Not for users, no. The only gain here is facebook's bandwidth costs, at the expense (and inconvenience) of its users.

Change rarely occurs smoothly.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by jterce on Monday April 22, 2013 @12:47PM (#5590288)
> The problems occur when they're trying to do stuff on their local machines.

By all means, try to explain that to users if you like, and if you think they'd care. The issue is that it breaks the user experience, whatever technical reason you'd like to attribute that to.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by w1ntermute on Monday April 22, 2013 @12:51PM (#5590319)
I'm not explaining anything to the users, I'm just explaining to you how you're wrong when you state that they "broke the web for their users".

The users are completely irrelevant, because no matter how much they bitch and moan, they're not going to leave Facebook. Its network effects are too powerful. And so, for once, I actually support Facebook. They're using their dominant market position to push a new standard that is quite good. This will hopefully force companies like Adobe to start adding support for WebP by default. Then we'll finally able to ditch obsolete standards like JPEG and its ilk once and for all.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by lelandbatey on Monday April 22, 2013 @03:28PM (#5591283)
This is one of those times where changing something breaks somebody's work flow because they're doing things outside of spec. And in cases like this, you have to say "get over it."

Facebook is still doing what Facebook intends to do, in fact they do it better! It's unfortunate that a tiny margin of users are slightly inconvenienced, but they need to get over it.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by dspillett on Monday April 22, 2013 @02:44PM (#5591032)
> Not for users, no. The only gain here is facebook's bandwidth costs, at the expense (and inconvenience) of its users.

If it saves a significant amount of bandwidth it could be useful to mobile users too, who might find themselves stuck somewhere with nothing but GPRS in a congested cell.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by ahoge on Monday April 22, 2013 @04:50PM (#5591690)
> The only gain here is facebook's bandwidth costs, at the expense (and inconvenience) of its users.

Users love faster websites. If you make your website faster, people will use it more. If you're selling something, they will buy more if your site is fast.

This has been A/B tested by countless companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Netflix, Shopzilla, and so forth. Front-end performance is amazingly important.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by ersii on Monday April 22, 2013 @12:27PM (#5590160)
> Because they broke the web for their users.

No, they did not. They broke it for the people who download the image for viewing outside of their web browser.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by cobralibre on Monday April 22, 2013 @12:40PM (#5590242)
Rather than dwelling on the phrase "they broke the web", read it as "they broke an important use case".

Facebook is integral to the everyday lives of many ordinary people, and the lesson here is that the designers at Facebook need to think beyond the specific tech and content that they build and deliver; they need to also consider the context in which their product is used.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by dfxm12 on Monday April 22, 2013 @01:33PM (#5590581)
What about the context of "my page is loading too slowly" or "Facebook is using all of the data in my monthly plan"?

Some users are facing a temporary inconvenience but everyone gets an immediate & long term gain.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by cobralibre on Wednesday April 24, 2013 @04:22PM (#5603715)
It ought to go without saying that Facebook is trying out this new image format because they expect benefits.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by jfb on Monday April 22, 2013 @03:20PM (#5591241)
Not everyone: only people who are bandwidth constrained.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by rhizome on Monday April 22, 2013 @04:47PM (#5591676)
I imagine the use case on the Facebook side is "viewing the image on Facebook" rather than anything beyond that.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by kostya-kow on Tuesday April 23, 2013 @05:42PM (#5598185)
>Because they broke the web for their users.

If you want web to progress forward, then things are going to get broken. WebP is an efficient format, and face-book is doing a good thing by increasing it's adoption speed.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by wtracy on Monday April 22, 2013 @02:06PM (#5590791)
They broke a use case that does not generate advertising revenue. Of course they don't care.

Actually, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see someone, somewhere tout that as an advantage of WebP: "Joe Shmoe can't rip off your pictures in Photoshop!"

</cynicism>

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by kumarharsh on Monday April 22, 2013 @03:41PM (#5591363)
Facebook has to do "anything" here, because they are the ones implementing the format. If they want users to accept the change, they need to slowly phase out jpeg via this Download button.

What is much easier? Waiting for the next version of Photoshop to come (if you need built-in support for WebP, or APNG or whatnot) and splash out $1000 on that

or making facebook put that small link on photos?

You decide.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by DavidBradbury on Monday April 22, 2013 @05:53PM (#5591982)
¿Por qué no los dos?
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by oomkiller on Monday April 22, 2013 @11:22AM (#5589686)
There is a download link under options for pictures in "theater" mode. I haven't run into any WebP images yet, so I'm not sure if it downloads as jpg or not, but I've read it gives you the jpg link.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by tnorthcutt on Monday April 22, 2013 @12:26PM (#5590150)
In the case of the images linked in the CNet article (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=457095677701847&...), it gives you a download link for the jpeg. However, the images in that album are displayed as jpeg (for me), and the only way to view the .webp image is to open in a new tab and add the .webp extension in the url myself.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by igrigorik on Monday April 22, 2013 @06:17PM (#5592077)
This is slightly orthogonal, but still worth mentioning: there is WebP codec available for Windows, which adds WebP support in explorer and all the other common tools. Download page: https://developers.google.com/speed/webp/download
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by vlasta2 on Monday April 22, 2013 @01:00PM (#5590385)
I agree, that pushing WebP now is too soon as almost no image editors support it. I have added latest WebP codec (that also supports animations) into my RealWorld Paint ( http://www.rw-designer.com/image-editor ) few weeks ago and I doubt anyone else did it since that time. Chrome is really crazy supporting WebP now while it is still immature. Image editors and web server libraries should be the first ones to support WebP, web browsers should be last.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by ZeroGravitas on Monday April 22, 2013 @03:53PM (#5591422)
The basic jpeg-like functionality has been widely available for a while. And as in this case, high traffic websites (often Google's own) that are already re-processing millions of photos and/or images and Chrome are the obvious first places to get a foothold, long before anyone would think about actually editing a webp by hand in photoshop.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by wicknicks on Monday April 22, 2013 @02:56PM (#5591107)
I feel that this is the reason Facebook is trying such formats. If people have difficulty downloading the photos, they will visit the website more, and share more photos through FB than go through the "download -> edit -> non-facebook sharing medium (email/dropbox)" pipeline.
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by lelandbatey on Monday April 22, 2013 @03:40PM (#5591353)
I really don't think that's the chief reason. A very tiny number of Facebook users save images locally as it is, and by switching to webp Facebook really does save them a tremendous amount of money. Also, since webp is an open format, it's not like users can't use very easy converters/viewers to make webp quite usable.

I don't feel like this move is significantly more than an economic one.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by wmf on Monday April 22, 2013 @11:09AM (#5589592)
Except Facebook officially does not want people to export anything from Facebook. The ability for browsers to save images was a "bug".
Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by Total_Meltdown on Monday April 22, 2013 @11:13AM (#5589636)
They seem OK with downloading to me... http://i.imgur.com/wVZCFLm.png

Edit: And if it was a bug, they've taken their sweet time fixing it. I can still right click -> Save Image As.

Re:Facebook tries Google's WebP image format; users squawk by jrockway on Monday April 22, 2013 @11:16AM (#5589657)
Indeed. If Facebook is trying to lock users in, a non-patent-encumbered format with a free BSD-licensed reference implementation seems like the wrong way to do it.