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Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by zeteo on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:26PM (#5499745)
I'm sorry, but I don't see the incentives here. We have on the one hand a number of professional economics writers (e.g. Krugman) who are skeptical or dismissive of Bitcoin. On the other hand, we have a number of bloggers who already own Bitcoins and have a direct financial interest in their appreciation. I think it's pretty clear which side the hacks are on. Arguments such as "this is obviously not Tulip Mania because Bitcoin is not a tulip" only confirm it. (By the way, Tulip Mania involved some pretty sophisticated financial instruments - futures, options, insurance etc. Those 17th century Dutch who invented the stock exchange were actually pretty good at breaking a tulip into a million pieces and selling it repeatedly without its changing location.)
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by CWilliams1013 on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:43PM (#5499852)
Paul Krugman was also skeptical and dismissive of the Internet:

> The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in "Metcalfe's law" -- which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants -- becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's.

> As the rate of technological change in computing slows, the number of jobs for IT specialists will decelerate, then actually turn down; ten years from now, the phrase information economy will sound silly.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by gamblor956 on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:13PM (#5500045)
Paul Krugman was mostly right on both accounts...but for the wrong reasons.

The fax machine was a sea change when it was introduced. It absolutely was the one communications device every business had to have. It revolutionized white collar businesses and the sales process (imagine! transcontinental signed sales agreements within minutes!). Hell, the catalog industry (upon which the founding laws of e-commerce rest) owes its existence to the fax machine! Krugman misunderstood how important the fax machine was to businesses.

And he was right about the number of jobs for IT specialists, which has been declining for the past decade as IT operations are increasingly outsourced (even as other technology-related fields programming/design/etc have vastly grown) to foreign countries or specialized operators (i.e, Google Apps, Office 365, Amazon AWS, Salesforce, etc).

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by tolmasky on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:37PM (#5500197)
So with the fax machine analogy, you're saying that not only did he have no idea what he was talking about with his predictions of the future, but he also couldn't even comprehend the present.

With relation to IT jobs, wow that is one hell of a stretch.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by zeteo on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:58PM (#5499950)
Yes, having a Nobel Prize in economics doesn't make him right every time. But at least he doesn't have a direct financial incentive to be wrong.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by ExpiredLink on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:09PM (#5500747)
> Yes, having a Nobel Prize in economics doesn't make him right every time.

Yep, he proved that several times when he wrote about the imaginary Euro crisis.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by VMG on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:03PM (#5499980)
His incentive is his reputation among peers.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by ebbv on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:18PM (#5500071)
Which would be damaged if he were wrong. So his motivation is to be right, not to dismiss BitCoin.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by fnordfnordfnord on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:45PM (#5500607)
If you turn out to be wrong, along with everyone else in your cohort, that's okay (you can't win them all). It's being wrong, while going against the majority of your peers that gets you laughed at.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by eridius on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:01PM (#5499965)
I think it's safe to assume that Krugman is a lot more trustworthy when talking about something that's actually within his realm of expertise; namely, economics.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by cinquemb on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:13PM (#5500042)
economics boil down to human behavior.

what does it say about a person who is dismissive about the way technology can affect/influence human behavior?

what makes him an expert? is it because he panders to what is the status quo (the ever-present monopoly of sorts)? is it because he engages in thoughtful exploration of ideas and notions with a larger community and helps bring about great discussion? is it because he has a degree? is it because he has done something notable for humanity?

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by waterlesscloud on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:37PM (#5500195)
He was evaluating the internet's impact on economics.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by erva on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:12PM (#5500038)
Krugman's "expertise" in economics is akin to an Alchamist's "expertise" in chemistry.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by buss on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:50PM (#5499895)
Being wrong once doesn't make you wrong forever.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by cle on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:54PM (#5499927)
Of course not, but it does affect your credibility, and rightly so.

I don't know what his track record is on technology in general, but dismissing something as important and revolutionary as the Internet makes me seriously wonder about his ability to understand the impact of new technologies.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by kosei on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:33PM (#5500167)
It doesn't for me. A lot of people were wrong about the Internet. It was a revolutionary technology, but for every revolutionary technology that has succeeded, there are plenty that fail.

If we look back 10 years from now, BitCoin could either be hugely successful or a mere afterthought. I'm not going to hold anyone accountable for being "right" or "wrong" about predicting its future. But I suppose this is why sensationalist journalism works.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by Jtsummers on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:29PM (#5500141)
Being wrong on technology as an economist isn't an indicator in this case. Bitcoin is intended as a currency, his skepticism is directed towards that. His background as an economist and success/failure there should give weight to his views.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by danielweber on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:41PM (#5500220)
Bitcoin is about economics and technology.

Technologically, it's pretty amazing. People who try to attack it on technological grounds are probably wrong.

Economically, it's a different story, and it's about the economics that economists are most concerned and most informed.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by nhaehnle on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:27PM (#5500849)
I am curious: Has Krugman actually made any predictions about the potential uptake of Bitcoin?

From what I recall, his statements basically amount to saying that using Bitcoin as the basis for the economy is a bad idea because it would hurt macroeconomic developments.

Those are very different things, and obviously Krugman is much more likely to accurately predict the latter than the former.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by snowwrestler on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:17PM (#5500799)
Paul Krugman is an expert in economics, not the Internet. And while bitcoins live on the Internet, the study of their exchange is economics.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by cinquemb on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:52PM (#5499912)
This makes me think of what Fred Wilsion was talking about here with Monopolies(traditional fiat e.g. USD,EUR,CNY,AUD,JPY) vs. Startups(cryptographic,e.g. Bitcoin): http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2013/04/monopolies-and-startups.html

"Monopolies aren't great for society. So we have trust busters in government whose job it is to keep the monopolies in check. But they don't do that so well. And our government is pretty good at handing monopolies out. Just look at the cable industry.

A few entrepreneurs in a garage. Or a few hackers on the Internet. They are the best trust busters of them all. Look what open source Linux did to Microsoft (funny that Microsoft contributed m̶o̶s̶t̶ a significant amount of lines of code to the Linux kernel starting in 2009; EDIT: http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/04/linux-kernel-in-2011...). They put a dent in a machine that the government could not. And look at what Lyft, Sidecar, and Uber did to the medallion owners in San Franscisco. They got cabs on the streets when the government could not.

Never doubt that a small startup can take on a huge monopoly. Indeed, it is the only thing that can."

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by yoasif_ on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:12PM (#5500032)
"(funny that Microsoft contributed most lines of code to the Linux kernal)"

is not quoted in the source material and isn't true. Please provide some proof for this claim.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by cinquemb on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:39PM (#5500211)
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by fnordfnordfnord on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:08PM (#5500736)
>A new addition to the list of top contributors this year was Microsoft. The Redmond giant was the 17th most prolific corporate contributor to the Linux kernel in 2011. The company first began contributing code to Linux in 2009 when it submitted patches to improve the performance of running virtualized Linux guest instances on Windows servers.

That's not nearly the same as "Microsoft contributed most lines of code to the Linux kernal"

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by beambot on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:10PM (#5500755)
"17th most prolific corporate contributor" != most lines.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by gjulianm on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:35PM (#5500179)
It provided a lot of lines of code, and it was the main contributor one year IIRC. But most of that was Hyper-V related code, to make Linux work better as a virtual machine guest over Windows.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by cinquemb on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:18PM (#5500805)
thank you everyone for pointing out the err in my tidbit that i added and corrected… care to add something to the discussion on the subject matter that was not included in parenthesis, or is this err something thats so egregious that it takes away from main topic?

its like people feeling the need to correct grammar on the internet: most of the time they have nothing else to add to the discusion…

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by Nemo_ on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:44PM (#5499866)
Well, I am the author of the linked piece.

First, I have never owned any bitcoins, nor do I own any now. It is a fascinating and massive experiment, and I am quite happy to remain an observer rather than a participant.

Second, I suspect I know more about economics than you think (more a response to pico303 than to you). Obviously the deflationary argument is one of the strongest. The others are mostly noise, but wow is there a lot of noise.

I do wonder, though... What would happen if someone were to create something like Bitcoin but with, say, crowd-sourced monetary policy instead of a finite supply?

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by slg on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:10PM (#5500018)
I don't think a crowd-source monetary policy is a good answer. There is a reason why the US Federal Reserved is somewhat separated from the normal political process. They often have to make unpopular decisions that are in the best interest of the economy. The issue of deflation is a perfect example.

As far as I am aware there isn't any real debt owed in Bitcoin. So everyone who uses it has some positive value of Bitcoin. That means each and every one of them would individually benefit from widespread deflation, but that would have a negative long term impact on the currency as a whole. I am not sure if I trust the public to make the right long term monetary policy decision over something in their own personal interests.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by kiba on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:25PM (#5500477)
As far as I am aware there isn't any real debt owed in Bitcoin.

People absolutely do loan each other bitcoin with high interest rate. Unless you meant something different for "real debt".

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by slg on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:58PM (#5501001)
That is what I meant and like I said I wasn't aware of any. A quick Google search for "Bitcoin debt" mostly yields people expounding on the virtues of a "debt-free" currency. The existence of debt would complicate my example as popular opinion on monetary policy would differ. Debtors would prefer inflation while creditors and general currency holders would prefer deflation. Either way, I still don't think something like monetary policy should be left up to crowd sourcing.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by smrtinsert on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:24PM (#5500112)
As a potential client, I want a simple scheme to protect my wealth. I don't want to rely on keys, or crytography. I see no such thing akin to the FDIC. Why would I trust bitcoin? Also, why couldn't another digital currency simply obviate its existence?

I'm not arguing for it or against it, I agree with you that it is fascinating. However, my casual observation is that the pro and con of being in the wild wild west is that you are in the wild wild west.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by baddox on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:51PM (#5500280)
My mind is boggled by the implication that the FDIC is in any way simpler than bitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by Jtsummers on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:07PM (#5500379)
The implication is not that the FDIC is simpler than bitcoin. The implication is that there's little in the way of security with bitcoin. Which is as per the design. You lose your wallet/key, you lose your money. There's no way to insure against that loss (at least not 100%), otherwise half of all circulating BTC would be in an insurer's accounts.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by baddox on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:54PM (#5500670)
> There's no way to insure against that loss

Sure there is. Someone can sell insurance, and you can choose to pay for it.

> (at least not 100%)

Perhaps not, but I wouldn't call the FDIC's insurance "100%" either. I doubt it would take very many simultaneous bank runs for problems to arise, even with the FDIC.

> otherwise half of all circulating BTC would be in an insurer's accounts

I'm not sure why half of all BTC would need to be in insurers' accounts, and I'm not sure why that would be an inherent problem even if it were the case.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by msellout on Sunday April 07, 2013 @10:41AM (#5507336)
> Sure there is. Someone can sell insurance, and you can choose to pay for it.

Some assumptions: 1. Bitcoin insurance is a viable business; 2. People will trust the insurer.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by cs702 on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:21PM (#5500448)
Nemo_: sorry for the relatively poor level of discourse in this thread. Few people without a working knowledge of basic cryptography seem to understand that Bitcoin is, in a mathematical (i.e., true) sense, as indestructible as the hashing and signing algorithms it relies on to maintain integrity. Exchange markets like MtGox and online wallet-storage services like InstaWallet might be hacked and fail, but not Bitcoin (at least not without major mathematical advances that would render the entire Web insecure as a byproduct).

PS. You will enjoy reading this post on the origins of money, in which among other things the author analyzes the common properties of many commodities used as money throughout history -- including not just gold and silver but less-well-known materials like wampun shells, ivory beads, and ostrich egg shells: http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by danmaz74 on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:32PM (#5500515)
Uhm... if the owner of some bitcoin loses (eg, disk crash and no backup) his secret keys, aren't his bitcoin lost for any practical meaning of the word?
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by cs702 on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:47PM (#5500618)
Yes, of course -- very much like losing a physical wallet with cash inside it or a bag with gold coins. Lost forever. Just like paper currency. Just like gold. Unlike paper currency or gold, however, bitcoins can be encrypted and backed up.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by Lerc on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:37PM (#5500906)
>the deflationary argument is one of the strongest.

I'm curious as to the foundations of the benefits of inflation. I understand the principle that it discourages hoarding currency because your hoard decreases in value, but I'm not convinced that the net result is good for an economy. Wouldn't any method of hoarding satisfy the hoarders. Right now that seems to be gold.

The other aspect I find interesting is the Number of BitCoin. In one Sense there are A=21Million Bitcoin. In another sense there are B=11Million because that is the potential maximum in circulation right now. There is also C=??? Which is the amount of Bitcoin actively in circulation now (C = B - BitcoinHoarding).

Which of these should be the basis of a currency valuation? Only A can be considered deflationary (until 2140 anyway) from the principle that the quantity of bitcoin is not increasing but the economy is(hopefully).

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by base698 on Friday April 05, 2013 @05:27PM (#5501131)
An argument you hear a lot, particuarly from Keynsian economists is: bitcoin is bad because it's deflationary like gold.

In the past when we were using gold, like during the Civil War, we couldn't pay soldiers so we went to greenbacks (paper money like today). That allowed the soldiers to get paid so we could continue to fight the war. Gold obviously has a physical practical limit that can be traded and transfered. When a gram becomes worth so much it buys a house that makes other purchases of food and bills become impractical and people stop buying, and when building a billion dollar construction project moving it and protecting it has another set of problems and overhead. Bitcoin does not have the division problem--a single coin can be divided into pieces 10^8 pieces as the code currently works. That can also be changed in future versions to be divided even smaller. Ie, when one bitcoin can buy a house, you can just pay 0.0000001 for your stick of gum. So, we are then left with the argument, "Oh My God people won't buy because of the psychology that 0.01 coin today that currently buys a pack of gum being able to buy a car in the future." But, that's almost true now with savings and stocks and people still spend their money today and go into debt. Everyone knows if you save starting in your early 20s compounding interest it will be worth a ton more in 10 years, 20 years, etc.

Loans clearly have issues in a deflationary system. If you loan someone $10 today and that's worth $100 tomorrow how do they ever have a chance to pay it back? Payback would have to be on some growth rate where you owe "less" the longer the life of the loan with some interest built in. Venture Capital also would have issues, but if the rate of return on investments is greater than growth of the currency price that wouldn't be an issue either and one would expect it to stabilize over time.

Inflation is built into the current model to encourage investment and prevent concentration of capital. Clearly, given the wealth divide that isn't working (blame exploitation of 3rd world or robots). The argument from the anarcho-libertarians and socialist-libertarians is to try something new.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by fish2000 on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:07PM (#5500006)
One minor point: “Money ain't got no owners – only spenders” … see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWbq-WgE6yo

But yeah, great reaction piece, +1 for excellent fulminations.

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by drcode on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:21PM (#5500088)
Bitcoin DOES have a crowd-sourced monetary policy: Anyone in the "crowd" can try to create their own bitcoin clone and therefore increase the supply (though incompatible with regular bitcoins, of course)
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by danielweber on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:14PM (#5500418)
Given that 99.44% of the bitcoin community thinks deflation is the most awesome thing ever, that will never happen.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by Lerc on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:41PM (#5500928)
If bitcoin were to be a major world currency the current community would become less than 1%. That might upset some. It'd be like being a old-guard redditor when all the digg people arrived.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by fnordfnordfnord on Friday April 05, 2013 @03:59PM (#5500688)
Mining information for Bitcoin and 8 competitor projects: http://dustcoin.com/mining
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by drcode on Friday April 05, 2013 @05:36PM (#5501192)
It's already happened. See litecoin.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by paulhodge on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:20PM (#5500086)
If tulips had a near-zero storage cost (ie they didn't go bad), and a near-zero transmission cost, and if they supported anonymous ownership, and if the process for generating tulips was more fair, and if the speed of tulip generation was guaranteed to slow down, then tulips probably would have made a decent form of currency too. Other than that though, totally the same thing.
Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by ars on Friday April 05, 2013 @04:37PM (#5500909)
Clearly you have not studied the subject.

No tulips were ever exchanged during the mania - only contracts for tulips.

The contracts had near-zero storage costs, near-zero transmission cost (just membership in the trading hall), anonymous ownership (sort of), and the process for generating tulips seems fair to me - the more work you do, the more tulips you create.

(Not that is actually mattered - the entire thing happened during the dormant season of the tulip, and no one actually grew any.)

Re:Bitcoin makes journalists say stupid things by zeteo on Friday April 05, 2013 @02:30PM (#5500152)
Or maybe the similarity is a wave of speculative frenzy in both cases, inflating prices to unsustainable levels. The factors you mention (low storage and transmission cost, anonymous ownership) make speculation easier, not harder.