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Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by CamperBob2 on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:31PM (#5191308)
In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank.

Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing.

(To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries are stupid, but I can't understand why someone like Elon Musk doesn't understand that. I'll admit that it makes me wonder if I'm missing something.)

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by chc on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:39PM (#5191334)
The battery for the Model S is the entire base of the car. It's over seven feet long, weighs more than half a ton and costs about $12,000 to make. I'm sure they would have loved if it could have been swappable, but getting there from the current technology would mean a lot of compromise that would almost certainly not be worth it.
Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by CamperBob2 on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:50PM (#5191377)
Apparently -- see other comments in this thread, and the ones that were made the last time this came up in another HN story -- the Model S battery is designed as a module for rapid replacement.

Of course, without an industry-wide effort to standardize a few core battery sizes for different applications, it's a moot point. That is the problem that I wish Musk had set out to solve.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by chc on Friday February 08, 2013 @10:00PM (#5191414)
AFAIK it's designed to be replaceable without major surgery, but I don't think the replacement is meant to be quite as rapid as "stop at a gas station and they'll pop a new one in." I'm not an expert, but that was my impression.
Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by bwhite on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:46PM (#5191366)
You're not the first person with this idea: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/

To some extent there is a standards problem: there is not a common battery pack (like there is a gas tank fill point). But even if there were, the batteries would continue to run down after delivery (unless supplied with a non-trivial amount of power). And the space required to physically store these batteries would occupy a lot of volume. After all, gasoline/diesel is far more energy-dense than modern batteries.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by CamperBob2 on Friday February 08, 2013 @10:01PM (#5191417)
But even if there were, the batteries would continue to run down after delivery (unless supplied with a non-trivial amount of power).

My thinking is that they would be kept on trickle charge at the gas station after delivery. That wouldn't take a huge amount of power. The actual recharging process would happen at a depot that has high power connectivity to the grid with low distribution losses.

I suspect it would be more efficient to do that and have the charged batteries trucked to the service stations, than it would be to have each service station do their own primary recharging. Especially since, as you say, the service station owners aren't going to want to devote a huge amount of space to battery inventory.

I'm vaguely aware of Better Place but they certainly don't get Tesla's mindshare (good, bad, or otherwise.)

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by bwhite on Friday February 08, 2013 @10:47PM (#5191560)
Lithium-ion batteries are supposed to be pretty good as resisting self-discharge, losing only .3-.5% per day (or around 10% per month). The Tesla S has the 60 kWh or 85 kWh battery, so replacing around half a percent of that each day is 300-425 Wh. That's not much at all! If the battery replacement machines are simple and foolproof, perhaps home delivery of batteries and a small trickle charger could be a competitive model to full-blown home chargers?

Storing the batteries at the station will require much more volume than the analogous amount of gas/diesel. And a dumb tank beats a smart battery charger with software and EEPROMs if your concern is resiliency. Some EV problems are pretty clearly chicken/egg adoption problems. But there are some real infrastructure problems, too, and other changes may bear far more fruit towards the goal of more efficient energy exploitation.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by eropple on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:40PM (#5191338)
I think you are missing something: where do you put the replaceable batteries?

Tesla's battery packs are distributed throughout the car, both to allow for cargo space (not having a trunk would be something of a minus) and to distribute the weight of all those batteries. I am having a very hard time envisioning a way to achieve both of those goals while making the batteries replaceable.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by revelation on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:43PM (#5191352)
The battery pack is not distributed throughout the car, and it is actually designed to be somewhat hot-swap capable in the Model S.

It's just that for the majority of people, battery swapping makes no sense. They can charge their vehicle over night at very very cheap prices and have enough range to serve them all day. If you insist on taking a cross-country roadtrip, rent an ICE - the infrastructure is just not there yet (or peoples minds have not accomodated - see this article).

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by nickv on Friday February 08, 2013 @10:06PM (#5191435)
I've heard that awhile back, but based on the new designs I've seen for the "battery base" I don't see how that's possible?

Pic of the battery: (which is really the base of the whole car) http://www.cartype.com/pics/10143/full/tesla_model_s_battery...

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by mh- on Saturday February 09, 2013 @08:25AM (#5192468)
that battery has its own wheels..
Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by CamperBob2 on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:41PM (#5191346)
(Shrug) Engineering ultimately has to serve real-world requirements, above and beyond all else.
Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by bpc9 on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:39PM (#5191330)
The article mentioned that the top-end battery weighs in at half a ton --- not exactly hot-swapping material. Also, when it comes to safety, center of gravity, chassis rigidity, etc --- I'm sure there were a myriad of engineering decisions beyond weight that go against hot swapping. And that's not even getting to added cost and logistics of maintaining a network of skilled battery swap experts, "ownership" over the batteries (e.g. who is responsible for replacing failing units if they are shared around the community of Tesla owners).

I'm probably just scratching the surface with a minute of thought. I'm sure that the folks at Telsa have been over this ground, and much more.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by CamperBob2 on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:41PM (#5191343)
You're right, those are all drawbacks. They all pale in comparison to the advantages, though.

Swapping my car's battery should be as big a deal as swapping the propane cylinder on my gas grill.

And yes, batteries these days are perfectly capable of monitoring themselves in a leased-usage scenario. Your laptop battery has its own CPU and EEPROM, for instance. To understand why, see any recent news story on the Dreamliner.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by eropple on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:43PM (#5191351)
It would be nice, sure, but your propane cylinder doesn't cost thousands of dollars or weigh half a ton. There are physical realities to contend with.
Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by CamperBob2 on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:46PM (#5191364)
There are physical realities to contend with.

Yes, and we've just read about them in the New York Times.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by bpc9 on Friday February 08, 2013 @10:06PM (#5191436)
"Should" is always a tough one -- from a product design standpoint.

The tradeoffs due to price point, available technologies, time to market, etc leave a lot of "should" on the cutting floor due to compromise. I don't think we're particularly close on hot swap batteries as a stand in for real time charging while they still weigh 1000lbs.

I'm betting that folks like Telsa will drive hard on the necessary advances in battery technology over time, or energy storage technique more broadly.

Personally, I think having to swap the battery is just as stone age inefficient. I want some sort of super-capacitor with instant charge capability and fine-grained control over the energy release --- not to mention avoiding the nasty chemical mix in traditional battery tech, waste energy in the form of heat, etc.

Maybe some amalgamation of materials science, nano-tech, etc will get us there.

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by tkahnoski on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:58PM (#5191406)
I actually think the major thing missing here ia not swapping out the entire pack (although that would probably be more time efficient), but having some sort of emergency pack to get you that extra 5 or 10 miles you need to a charging station (or in the case of the article, release the parking brake to quicken the towing process).
Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by CamperBob2 on Friday February 08, 2013 @10:14PM (#5191464)
(or in the case of the article, release the parking brake to quicken the towing process).

Yes, that part of the article struck me as a real head-scratcher. This kind of "engineering" is becoming all too common in the auto industry, even among companies that have been around for decades and should know better.

For instance, the battery in the new-generation Porsche 911 is in the front trunk... which can only be opened electrically.

WTF, people? Are all the smart guys and gals working for Google these days, or something?

Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by tkahnoski on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:55PM (#5191396)
I actually think the major thing missing here ia not swapping out the entire pack (although that would probably be more time efficient), but having some sort of emergency pack to get you that extra 5 or 10 miles you need to a charging station.
Re:Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway by DrewAllyn on Friday February 08, 2013 @09:50PM (#5191380)
The thing you are missing is that currently, batteries are built in to the structure of the vehicle. To do otherwise would necessarily reduce the size of the battery significantly, as now the battery needs to fit in a convenient to remove location, and all the parts necessary to enable insertion/removal of the battery would take up space. Not to mention that the batteries are wickedly heavy, too heavy to be lifted by a single person, so there would need to be a machine to swap them, which takes up real estate at the gas station, and just generally complicates things.

Maybe there will be swappable batteries eventually, or one part of the battery will be swappable, but as far as I understand thats not coming soon.