The guy is the antagonist in the movie so you're not supposed to like him and he's written that way. He's a strawman and his whole speech is how the real version of him would sound filtered through the ears of someone who disagreed with him.
So you end up with people holding him up as an example that disagree and agree with him but the both of those groups are choosing the sides of a caricature that doesn't understand the point he's trying to make. It's weird.
1) Michael Douglas is extremely attractive and charismatic, so people like him even if they're not supposed to.
2) The movie never shows Gekko in jail, so you never see the true consequences.
The directors always try to avoid this criticism by saying, "Well he goes to jail in the end," but I think it's a bit of a cop out. But I tend to agree with the idea that art should try to embody some moral values, which goes against a lot of contemporary thoughts on aesthetics.
Yes, and there's the scene with Hal Holbrook, I think he lectures Bud Fox just before or after he's arrested? Holbrook made a career of playing moral authority figures.
I think the seductive appeal of Gordon Gekko is meant to illustrate something fundamental about the human condition. We are all susceptible to temptation, whether it involves pleasure, money, status, or power. And success doesn't necessarily satisfy desire, if anything, it intensifies it. Can you eat just one potato chip? Would you return a wallet full of cash? If you made a million dollars, would that be enough? Gekko is an example of an ordinary human predicament: the difficulty of knowing when we have enough, and the ease with which we rationalize getting more.
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On another note, it's too late to edit my earlier post in this topic.
"delivered in 1986 at The speaker? Ivan Boesky"
should be
"delivered in 1986 at what is now the Haas School of Business of the University of California at Berkeley. The speaker? Ivan Boesky"
The erroneous question mark is in the PDF, but I inadvertently omitted the location clause. Carelessness is another aspect of the human condition.
I think it's closer to "monkey see, monkey do".
After the Fast and The Furious movies, young men would street race home from the movie.
After watching the movie The Program, young men laid down in the street at night hoping not to get hit by traffic (copying the risky stunt the characters in the movie did).
The art simply shows what is, not what should be.
The Sopranos was interesting because it showed a mob boss doing the typical mob boss things (dodging FBI surveillance, dealing with rival crime families and street thugs, organizing new business ventures, burying evidence deep in the woods / dumping in the river). But it also showed a man with momma issues, with panic attacks, processing (well mostly rejecting) therapy, a wife who spends too much, a son as dumb as a box of rocks, etc. It wasn't the broad morality of western societies, but it was approachable because the character was eminently human.
Similarly, Dexter was a serial murderer, but he had "a code" (to only murder other serial murderers). His code doesn't necessarily match up with the morals of you or I, but like any fiction, it allows you to suspect your disbelief and inhabit the moral choices / predicaments of the character for a few minutes / hours.
they aspired to appear more civilized after seeing how they were portrayed on film - wearing tailored suits and swearing less I guess.
I don’t know which directors you’re referring to, but I doubt you receieved such a simplistic response from Scorcese. Worth reading him in his own words on this, below is what he said regarding Jordan Belfort’s character in The Wolf of Wall Street,
“That's something that I've always been attracted to and is interesting to me. Someone like Jordan or Jake Lamotta or Tommy, Joe Pesci’s character in Goodfellas, and people say well that type of person that sort but… I guess what that means is that they try to distance themselves from them. It's someone else it's not me but in actuality I feel it's not someone else, it's us. It's you and me and maybe if we'd been born under different circumstances, maybe we would have wound up making the same, exactly the same mistakes and choices and doing exactly the same things. I really think … when people say “that kind,” it’s not a matter of equalizing everyone and saying we're all responsible, I think it's a matter of facing and recognizing and acknowledging that part of us which is a part of our common humanity. And we have to deal with it.”
“He [Jordan Belfort] thought that he could bypass morality or surpass morality with a combination of money and drugs. I don't know maybe he still does, I really don't know. There's another way of answering the question; he was different from Madoff and Skilling in that they weren't crashing helicopters or throwing little people (or maybe they were but if they did they kept it pretty quiet) but in that sense Jordan's experiences are more entertaining and that brings you closer to him because you look at these guys and think this seems to be a lot of fun. Well, it doesn't just look that way they really did have a lot of fun. In fact that's really all they could do is have fun and more fun and more on top of that, until it wasn't so much fun anymore. But what they couldn't do was just be. They just couldn't face that. So the challenge is to show that honestly without tipping the scales into judgment and taking you outside of the world these characters and the particular ways that they live their lives which was to obliterate all obstacles, all troubles, all difficulties, by taking more drugs, more money.”
Blaise Pascal in his Pensées (Thoughts):
> When I have occasionally set myself to consider the different distractions of men, the pains and perils to which they expose themselves at court or in war, whence arise so many quarrels, passions, bold and often bad ventures, etc., I have discovered that all the unhappiness of men arises from one single fact, that they cannot stay quietly in their own chamber. A man who has enough to live on, if he knew how to stay with pleasure at home, would not leave it to go to sea or to besiege a town. A commission in the army would not be bought so dearly, but that it is found insufferable not to budge from the town; and men only seek conversation and entering games, because they cannot remain with pleasure at home. […]
> Whatever condition we picture to ourselves, if we muster all the good things which it is possible to possess, royalty is the finest position in the world. Yet, when we imagine a king attended with every pleasure he can feel, if he be without diversion, and be left to consider and reflect on what he is, this feeble happiness will not sustain him; he will necessarily fall into forebodings of dangers, of revolutions which may happen, and, finally, of death and inevitable disease; so that if he be without what is called diversion, he is unhappy, and more unhappy than the least of his subjects who plays and diverts himself. […]
* https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18269/18269-h/18269-h.htm § 139
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensées
And perhaps:
> To endure oneself may be the hardest task in the universe. You cannot hire a wise man or any other intellect to solve it for you. There's no writ of inquest or calling of witness to provide answers. No servant or disciple can dress the wound. You dress it yourself or continue bleeding for all to see.
* Frank Herbert, Dune Messiah
I'm convinced that a lot of people--probably even some of my own neighbors--wear a mask of civility only because we live in a society and have rules that are enforced. If the opportunity ever arrived and we entered some kind of Mad Max lawlessness, would murder and plunder like barbarians out of fiction.
This is mostly a prepper fantasy that justifies things like buying a bunch of guns and canned beans instead of investing in more difficult things like community building. From the (IMO, naive) POV that human behavior is strictly selfish, it would rarely occurs that this kind of behavior would be beneficial to an individual's self-interest. Even in the worst-case, entirely imaginary SHTF complete destruction of society scenario, sociable behavior is more beneficial than any kind of anti-social Wasteland Raider behavior.
Maybe some aberrant individuals, but they would quickly fail without community support.
The Corleone family is also who viewers identify with in The Godfather.
Contrast with an Eastwood western, where he is the good guy or a guy better than the rest or at least with consistent morals.
I have a running joke with my closest friends that we are in a post-satire world because real news today is frequently indistinguishable from satire from 10-20 years ago. Sometimes The Onion headlines just bleed into the monotony of the news cycle, but it's not because they are any less satirical.
It is a classical hollywood trope to preset a “bad guy” protagonist as cool, charming, and resourceful and with a glamorous life.
His apparent reasonableness obscures the fact that he's appealing to the rapacious or covetous nature of the shareholders. He wants to override any moral objection to the fact that he's buying the company, in part, to strip the overfunded employee pensions, and by accepting his offer, shareholders get a cut. (IIRC, it's been decades since I saw the movie.)
The moral failure is treating a retirement fund, and the people whose livelihoods depend on it, primarily as an opportunity for personal enrichment. Pension assets do not belong to the company in the ordinary sense. They are held in trust for the benefit of employees and retirees. The employer generally cannot withdraw funds while the plan is operating.
Wall Street was released in 1987, and the law regarding pensions has changed since then, in part to address employers reverting pension assets. As I understand it, there is a now a 50% excise tax on reversions, which are only allowed in specific circumstances. I imagine this tax is intended to discourage reversions.
Personally, I don't understand why any of the money I put away for retirement belongs to anyone but me. Usually such funds are managed by finance companies, not the employer, and the finance companies are already getting their cut, any lucky excess should come to me.
(The substance of the issue with overfunded pensions is itself a complicated separate topic, which I don't mean to oversimplify.)
Can I add another wrinkle: wealthy Gekko is obviously the villain, trying to raid pensions to expand his own coffers. Now, what if the pension raid is the cratering of index funds (and the financial contagion that follows)? What if the beneficiary isn't a rich financier, but a generation of workers who finally see asset prices plummet enough to allow them to afford homes, cars, etc.?
Seeing the parallels to our current (or coming) moment, I wonder how others read it.
Villans usually see themselves as heroes and everyone else as either stupid or sucker. That does not mean I have to adopt villans framing just because he looks charizmatic.
Boesky was born to a Jewish family in Detroit. His family owned several delicatessens and taverns in the city. Although he lacked an undergraduate degree, he was admitted to Detroit College of Law (now Michigan State University College of Law) and graduated in 1965. In the 1980s, Boesky served as an adjunct professor at Columbia University's Graduate School of Business and at New York University's Graduate School of Business.
Time magazine ran a December 1, 1986, cover story about his "scam," dubbing him "Ivan the Terrible."[11]
Per a plea bargain, he received a prison sentence of 3+1⁄2 years and was fined US$100 million. Although he was released after serving only 20 months, he was permanently prohibited from working with securities. He served his sentence at Lompoc Federal Prison Camp near Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.
Boesky smoked Marlboro cigarettes and lived till 87 yrs.
Boesky was also featured in Titans The Rise of Wall Street on Amazon Prime
The whole paragraph from where that line is extracted:
> Teldar Paper, Mr. Cromwell, Teldar Paper has 33 different vice presidents each earning over 200 thousand dollars a year. Now, I have spent the last two months analyzing what all these guys do, and I still can't figure it out. One thing I do know is that our paper company lost 110 million dollars last year, and I'll bet that half of that was spent in all the paperwork going back and forth between all these vice presidents. [some chuckles from audience] The new law of evolution in corporate America seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well, in my book you either do it right or you get eliminated. In the last seven deals that I've been involved with, there were 2.5 million stockholders who have made a pretax profit of 12 billion dollars. [applause] Thank you. I am not a destroyer of companies. I am a liberator of them! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA. Thank you very much.
* https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094291/quotes/?item=qt0393936
The text of the larger context of that paragraph is in the above link, or you can watch the entire scene:
I did not know this! Thank you for posting!