That said, I'm fucking horrified by your story. If your brother is a productive man of society, then your mother got lucky. But for every productive man of society, we have a hundred fathers who beat their children senselessly because "that's how I was raised."

Violence begets violence. Abuse begets abuse. Nothing about proper, strict discipline requires behaviour that would, under other circumstances, get you locked up.

That said, I think it's for the best that physical abuse is criminalized, because I don't think human beings can be trusted to use it judiciously. Like you pointed out, when accepted, it is used inappropriately and destructively much more often than it is used appropriately (hey, just like guns.) However, one consequence of giving up corporal punishment is that some (very small) subset of kids will be deprived of punishment that could have set them on a better course, and in the end society will resort to violence to control them, violence carried out lawfully via the justice system.

What? I beg to differ. Unless hunting, competition and self defense are inappropriate uses of guns; then guns are used (or non-used)appropriately and non-destructively far more than they are used inappropriately.

I agree corporal punishment is cruelty. But some minimal beating must be allowed to put things in order. My mom is a teacher, and back here in the past and to some extent now. Beating kids in school in India was the norm. She tells me many parents would come ask the teachers to not beat their kids, some would come and ask teachers to be ask strict as they can.

Its all in the ideology. But my mom says, on an average my mom says a kid who has been corrected by beating has gone to do a lot well than the ones that hasn't.

Haven't you heard of the proverb- "Spare the stick and spoil the child"

Some times you have to get strict.

I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it but it does seem to me that different kids react to different kinds of treatment. Hitting one kid may really be unnecessary and even harm them mentally. Other kids seems like absolutely nothing works on them except physical spanking. Maybe that is due to the way their parents are raising them? I'm not sure.

I remember in school a few bullies who got their ass kicked by another student and that problem was instantly solved. So it does seem like it works sometimes. But I hate to think we're just perpetuating a violent nature .

That proverb is misapplied. When you look at the original Hebrew in context the stick was a guiding stick not a beating stick. A guiding stick is one used for gentle nudges to keep someone on the right path. Basically the proverb is saying: An unguided child is a spoiled child.

Today is is often interpreted: An unbeaten child is a spoiled child. However, this is not the original intent of the passage at all!

I don't have a biblical commentary on me but if you want to check I suggest the Anchor Bible series which generally provide high quality modern scholarship with extensive bibliographies.

IMHO, this(revised definition) is a catchup which the clergy (of various religions) play every now and then. Sometimes to meet the new discovery in science, or other times to meet the current human right guidelines.

[1] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spare_the_rod_and_spoil_the_ch...

Finally, KJV is simply not a very accurate interpretation of the texts it draws from. Nor does it take into account more ancient texts which are now available to interpreters and translators. Moreover, translation (while interpretation) does not provide context which is why I pointed you to a reliable commentary series which will provide up to date scholarship on the matter.

I am not saying my interpretation is right but I am saying you will need to do a bit better than just referencing a wiktionary article on the etymology.

Apropo:

תהילים פרק כג' פסוק 4 גַּם כִּי-אֵלֵךְ בְּגֵיא צַלְמָוֶת לֹא-אִירָא רָע כִּי-אַתָּה עִמָּדִי שִׁבְטְךָ וּמִשְׁעַנְתֶּךָ הֵמָּה יְנַחֲמֻנִי

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for Thou art with me; {N} Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me.

Busy trying not to pay child support and fighting her in court for custody of the children.

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/07/news-from-war...

I am not advocating beating your kids, but if they are hell bent on testing the limits I think you have to show them that there is definitely a line that can not be crossed.

But it is only a tool. You have to be consistent, and you have to be clear, and you have to be generally supportive. You can't expect of them things they can't do. All of that is probably more important than corporal punishment.

"I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good." This was a response to a description of severe acting out by a child. A child threatening to kill herself or her parents is not an indication of sound mental health. Hitting them will make it worse.

Sufficiently dysfunctional behavior defines what it means to have a psychological problem.

As an example, if someone (for whatever reason) wants to kill his neighbour and take his goods/wife/house/whatever, then we'll force him not to do it, up to and including lethal force by lots of armed uniformed men.

Continuing with the example, if a "kid" realistically threatens to perform criminal acts - such as shooting someone, robbing someone, raping someone - then submission is not optional, it's mandatory and it SHOULD be an absolute goal. The only question is how to make that submission happen in a humane manner - if the expected result is violence and a long prison term or death, then many means of forcing submission, such as threatening physical punishment or forced medication may seem quite reasonable.

And once a person is an adult, physical abuse (police beatings, confinement with criminals, disgusting (http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/apr/loaf/)) is the normal way rebellion is treated. And it seems to work. Most people avoid harming their neighbors and pay their taxes.

What other goal would there be? The idea of corporal punishment is that child fears getting hit enough that they will stop acting on the motives they have which conflict with those of the parents. In other words, they will submit to the motives of the parents.

Common sense aside, the fact that beating doesn't produce good outcomes for children is common knowledge in highly educated societies.

The American Academy of Pediatrics says:

"First, establish a positive, supporting and loving relationship with your child. Without this foundation, your child has no reason, other than fear, to demonstrate good behavior. [...] If you feel discipline is necessary, the AAP recommends that you do not spank or use other physical punishments. That only teaches aggressive behavior, and becomes ineffective if used often."

The goal for the drastic measures my mom took was to not loose her child. That he stopped being such a big brat was a bonus. He was still strong tempered, but at least he would no longer test my mother. And the threat of a beating kept the rest of us in line. We knew not to test her. All of my brothers and sisters grew up to be decent human beings.

In case you are wondering, my brother never beats his kids, is enough for them to see him mad when they misbehave for them to fall in line.

I concede, had he had a mental disorder it would probably not have worked. In this case though, I'm not sure the OP really had a mental disorder which is why I suggested the beating. Some kids will go to great lengths to manipulate you as much as they can.

Anyway, this is just an anecdote so take it as such.

- Beating does a worse job of correcting behavioral problems than more humane methods

- Beating contributes negatively to how your children feel, in general

Again, this doesn't mean that beating makes you sick, or that it never corrects a specific behavior. Only that it's not a good idea, and, however mildly on a case-by-case basis, it probably means you're mistreating your kids.

I wouldn't suggest it to anyone regardless of whether or not you consider violently threatening to kill yourself and your parents, to the point that they are afraid for their lives, to be evidence of mental health issues.

Their audience here is a general one, especially parents. They are not using "only" to make some kind of absolute claim about human nature. The point is that it's commonly accepted (and supported by research) that hitting your children is unhelpful to them and doesn't work well.

Can you back up your claim that beatings produce poor outcomes for children in "highly educated societies?" Or that 'less educated societies" are inferior because they don't have qualms about spanking their kids when they misbehave?

Corporal punishment is more common in less affluent/educated societies than it is in wealthy/well-educated ones. This is common knowledge. I never said anything about inferiority. It's not about judging anyone, it's about contradicting bad advice.

I've always figured that Corporal punishment is like banging rocks together to make fire. sure it _can_ be done, our ancestors used it effectively and it can be useful as a last resort; but a lighter or matchsticks are significantly more effective.

In my experience, those who argue strongly in favor of beating children do so not because they know better but because that technique is all they know. essentially: "but if i don't beat him how will I get him to behave??"

My point is that who is the AAP to say how best to raise children? I seriously doubt the validity of any study that claims to be conclusive on how to raise children, and would make a bet that any research they did was localized to the US. Anecdotally, several of my friends were beaten as children and turned out fine. All this proves is that sometimes physical punishment works and sometimes it doesn't. But the same goes for "establishing a loving relationship with your child;" since you can hardly do that when they're threatening to stab you with a knife.

  > is rather telling evidence that our forebears
  > found it to be the most effective way to bring
  > children in line

- Slavery / Indentured Service as a means of generating wealth.

- Punishing women for sexuality (because all women were temptresses, and a man couldn't be blamed for infidelity, rape, etc).

- Torture against criminals / political prisoners.

- Religious wars.

I don't think that "our forebears did it, so there must be something to it," is a generally effective argument.

Are these societies the same societies where shoot outs happen at schools? Because I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case.

Physical abuse is one thing. Disciplining is another.

'You won't get to play your video game' is not even a punishment. If you are thinking you can discipline your kid by these make believe tricks, All the best.

When we talk of beating a kid, we are not talking about smashing him/her to pulp. The idea to ensure the kid is stopped when he/she is at the beginning of doing something wrong[Like stopping him when he first steals from/bullies/hits other kids]. If you let your kid grow up, carry guns and fire at people something is seriously wrong with your upbringing. And frankly speaking you can't wash your hands off by putting it on mental disease.

These are not cases of mental disease, these are just unruly kids, who fear nothing[After all why should they, when their own parents can't do anything about their behavior who else will?].

These kids need to be taught how it is in the real world, and if they can't do it the easy way some minimal beating must be allowed. I would prefer that rather than watch some one grow and fire bullets at others.

This has nothing to do with submission but with self-control - a rare quality which kids have to master. The so-called "timeouts" and disciplinary measures by our American friends don't work - resulting in children which cause so much more suffering for everybody - they don't work because the parents just do not establish a sense of authority and strict rules. Forget physical punishment for a moment but at home the parents and in school the teachers have to be able to establish their authority. I have seen so many parents, themselves using mental pharmaceutica who let their kids get away with things that were purely evil. At the same time I feel the sub-human stimulation (TV, games, etc.) many kids are flooded with over decades is considered less (negatively) habit forming than the application of simple repetitive acts of cultured manners, polite expressions and self-restraint.