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Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by EwanToo on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:35AM (#4886788)
It's always interesting to read RMS' posts, though I don't agree with a lot of them.

In this case, he's got a very valid point (I disabled the adverts on my Ubuntu install), but he uses such over the top language that it makes much of his writing seem like a parody.

Ubuntu sending all desktop searches to Amazon by default (even if it's via a proxy) isn't cool, and isn't what most users would expect, but I don't believe screeds like this aren't going to make Canonical think again.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by jessaustin on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:44AM (#4886821)
What was "over the top" about the linked piece? It's got to be the most even-tempered thing I've ever read from RMS. Did you actually read TFA before posting this comment?
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by EwanToo on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:51AM (#4886845)
I'm not going to go line by line, but you could start with this:

Proprietary software is associated with malicious treatment of the user

I don't believe 99% of people out there associate proprietary software with malicious treatment.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by josephlord on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:11AM (#4886924)
He didn't assert anything about peoples associations. He asserted that that there is an association between proprietary software and malicious treatment of the user. Now knowing a little about what RMS regards as malicious that is undoubtedly true in terms of the lack of freedoms.

Even on a narrower definition of malicious if it includes user tracking/monitoring then large amounts of proprietary software can be regarded as malicious. I would narrow my definition of malicious a little more personally but there are large amounts of fairly malicious software out there, very little of it Free software.

You might need to pick another line to take apart.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by vacri on Friday December 07, 2012 @05:52PM (#4889669)
'tracking people' is not inherently malicious. Countless parents expect teachers to track their kids.

"Where is my child?" => "I'm sorry ma'am, we had a day trip, but in the interests of your child's freedoms, I was forbidden from tracking her."

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by josephlord on Friday December 07, 2012 @07:27PM (#4890005)
And I said that I would narrow my definition of malicious a little more so I basically agree although I should have mentioned informed consent and whether it is opt in or out.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by splawn on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:18AM (#4886953)
Not disagreeing with your stated belief, but I believe most people in the linux community do associate proprietary software with maliciousness.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by Roybatty on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:15AM (#4887217)
I believe you're wrong. The vast majority of "linux users" don't buy into RMS's particular ideology. RMS proactively describes the differences between the OpenSource and "Free Software" philosophies.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by shardling on Friday December 07, 2012 @11:16AM (#4887549)
You're conflating two things, I think.

Most Linux users might not buy into a boycott of Ubuntu -- in that sense they reject RMS's ideology.

But I think few would argue that proprietary software does tend towards bullshit -- the very DRM and the like that RMS is calling malicious. They might not go around calling it malicious, but they wouldn't consider RMS's attitude there extreme, just the actions he advocates.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by Roybatty on Friday December 07, 2012 @12:26PM (#4887993)
Still disagree. I think your definition of "linux users" tends to be more desktop-oriented, where there is more of a philosophical bent towards an RMS ideology. My definition of "linux users" would include developers and sysadmins that are using it as a server, and use it for more practical reasons.

And malicious has strong connotations..e.g malware, spyware, which most "linux users" wouldn't necessarily apply to developers of legit proprietary software.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by hdra on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:14AM (#4886937)
This. Although I agree with his view for free software, the way he convey his messages smells too much of fanaticism for me to swallow.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by king_jester on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:07AM (#4887176)
So you dismiss RMS's arguments just because he doesn't talk and write the way you think he should? Talk about derailment, by this logic you don't have to agree with anyone or anything just as long as you feel they aren't nice or polite or well spoken enough.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by Karunamon on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:34AM (#4887307)
just because he doesn't talk and write the way you think he should

If he can't communicate his ideas in a calm and balanced way, perhaps those ideas don't have as much value as he thinks they do. Sorry, but method of delivery counts for a lot.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by king_jester on Friday December 07, 2012 @01:48PM (#4888504)
Jeez you are so emotional, you should just calm down. If you can't say anything nicely, you shouldn't say anything at all. Who believes an angry ranter like this anyway.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by mixmastamyk on Friday December 07, 2012 @04:35PM (#4889367)
> If you ever recommend or redistribute GNU/Linux, please remove Ubuntu from the distros you recommend or redistribute.

Whether or not I agree with it I found it quite calm and balanced (just like the phrase quoted above). Note there are no insults or exclamation points.

Perhaps his writing isn't the issue here, but your perception.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by Karunamon on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:13PM (#4890465)
Hyperbole delivered calmly is still hyperbole.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by drivebyacct2 on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:47AM (#4887383)
Not really.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by hdra on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:14PM (#4890326)
No, what I agree is his overall vision on free software. I don't care how he talk and write, but I can't agree with the way he speaks of his opinion (and maybe many others') as if it were a hard fact. Its not a matter of being polite or not, its more about the fact that basing an argument on opinion is not really credible.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by Roybatty on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:24AM (#4887259)
RMS's hyperbole undermines his arguments for many people.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by estel on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:52AM (#4886848)
I found referring to the Kindle as being for "virtual book burning" straying into rhetoric.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by belorn on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:06AM (#4887168)
Its a very loaded and picturesque description to use, but is it an wrong description?

The goal of book burning is to remove information, private owned books in this case, from the public by destroying them. While one could smash them and disintegrate them through the use of massive force, burning was the practical tool used.

If kindle suddenly create a goal of removing information from the public, in this case some private owned books, and goes through this act by destroying the information from private people own devices, doesn't that act align itself perfectly with book burning, through instead of using fire, they used electronic means.

Sure, its not something I would like to see on Wikipedia. Its not neutral, and there are better, impartial wording one could use to describe, but is it wrong to use in a blog?

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by rimantas on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:25AM (#4887265)

  > doesn't that act align itself perfectly with book burning,
  > through instead of using fire, they used electronic means
If that was the primary purpose of Kindle, you'd be right. However, for that to be true you constructed a scenario which is opposite to the real and intended use of Kindle.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by belorn on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:42AM (#4887342)
Of course its not the primary purpose of the Kindle to destroy information. They have however made it their goal once before in regard to one book.

The original blog post could be interpreted as claiming what the kindles main purpose is, but I doubt RMS would defend such interpretation. A one time act, while notable, does not equal primary purpose, and he and everyone else knows that.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by josephlord on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:19AM (#4886957)
I think you may intend somewhere towards the 3(b) definition but even that doesn't quite fit. Maybe another dictionary has a definition for your intended meaning.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rhetoric

1.a. The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.

b. A treatise or book discussing this art.

2. Skill in using language effectively and persuasively.

3. a. A style of speaking or writing, especially the language of a particular subject: fiery political rhetoric.

b. Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous: His offers of compromise were mere rhetoric.

4. Verbal communication; discourse.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by randallsquared on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:38AM (#4887036)
I found it merely confusing. In the context of computers, "burning" means "saving to disk" (as in "rip, mix, burn" or "we burn the documents as a secondary cache"), which is exactly something that Kindle tries to make harder.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by meaty on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:58AM (#4886871)
It's actually not rhetoric - it's a play on Bradbury's comment about e-readers "smelling like burned fuel" (read Fahrenheit 451 for the background of this).

I own a Kobo, but it's been seriously hacked by myself so it doesn't call home and only talks to SD cards. It also only gets non DRM epubs on it. Anything more would be considered virtual book burning on my part as well.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by astine on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:04AM (#4886890)
It's actually not rhetoric - it's a play on Bradbury's comment about e-readers "smelling like burned fuel" (read Fahrenheit 451 for the background of this).

That's almost the definition of rhetoric.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by meaty on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:06AM (#4886898)
Not quite. It depends on the context. This was a pointer to issues, none of which are supporting the argument but are of secondary interest.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by radarsat1 on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:09AM (#4886913)
What would you call this kind of thing then?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/oct/22/amazon-wipes-cus...

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by Karunamon on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:14AM (#4887209)
What was "over the top" about the linked piece?

Calling a search function "surveillance" for one. RMS is no stranger to stretching really evil-sounding words to fit things they really don't.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by gnud on Friday December 07, 2012 @12:58PM (#4888168)
Well, it's probably used for surveillance, though? Not in the 'what did John search for yesterday' sense. But I'm pretty sure it's used for 'what are people searching for this week'.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by monochromatic on Friday December 07, 2012 @10:12AM (#4887202)
> he uses such over the top language that it makes much of his writing seem like a parody

Seriously. I read the first paragraph or two and was thinking "who the fuck wrote this, RMS? Oh... yeah, I guess so."

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by daniel-cussen on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:38AM (#4886801)
He's not good at getting his point across, only at having good points.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by rexreed on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:52AM (#4886852)
He definitely got the point across to me! I had been considering installing Ubuntu desktop, but this article definitely made me think twice. So, I'd say the article had its intended effect.

That being said, reading the other comments here, it looks like there's more nuance in what is actually happening here. This is Ubuntu Desktop using the global search, which sends search queries to a central server. While I don't appreciate that either, at least it's not what I had thought from reading the headline that it was sending all local file searches to a server. So, it's a particular behavior, but still, Ubuntu should provide transparency as to what is happening, and even though the user can turn this feature off, (Stallman even states as such: "Ubuntu allows users to switch the surveillance off") the default on behavior is what I sense he is objecting to.

Perhaps a suggestion for a more nuanced title (which might not have the same dramatic effect, but would be more accurate): "Ubuntu Desktop Global Search sends Queries to Central Server, and shares with Amazon, by Default!"

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by debacle on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:14AM (#4886940)
There is no local search. There only global search, but historically the global search was only for local files.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by takluyver on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:37AM (#4887029)
There is local search - either by turning off remote results, or using the files/application lenses (Super+F/A). But the default search box does a global search.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by eternalban on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:51AM (#4886841)
Right, and for his good point to 'get across', it needs a connector of some sort. One end point of that connector is in your control.

RMS has been /clearly/ right-on regarding these matters from day 1. It is the proverbial 'you' that is refusing to 'listen' ...

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by jeremiep on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:46AM (#4886824)
I believe its the other way around; the general public is not generally good at understanding the wisdom of his points.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by rahoulb on Friday December 07, 2012 @08:52AM (#4886851)
As someone who nods my head in agreement to RMS most of the time (although I use proprietary software extensively), when I actually went to see him speak in person, I ended up feeling that he had weakened his case with the way he presented himself.

However, this article is well-written and clear.

Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by robinh on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:05AM (#4886893)
I don't really think that's how communication works.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by shardling on Friday December 07, 2012 @09:17AM (#4886952)
That was so absolutely not over the top I feel you're doing anyone who hasn't read the post yet a disservice.
Re:Ubuntu Spyware: What to Do? by aidenn0 on Friday December 07, 2012 @01:46PM (#4888476)
Yup, RMS considers Debian to be not-free enough because they don't make it hard enough to install proprietary software on their system.