News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by Osmium on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:01AM (#4842528)
The problem isn't with glass, it's with the wrong glass.

If anyone hasn't seen the promotional video for Corning's new Gorilla glass, they should:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT8xI4PEU8c

There is no reason why a glass back needs to be this fragile. Shattering from thermal shock is absurd, and the glass must be under some kind of stress from how it's secured to the phone. You can rightly disagree with the use of glass in an iPhone, because of course it's better if a phone can survive a drop, but at least it's not going to break just from being there.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by DannyBee on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:11AM (#4842869)
It's probably more likely that aliens took his phone, broke it, and placed it back on his counter, than the glass having shattered from thermal shock.

Here is a more likely scenario (that my friend the materials engineer gave me):

Gorilla Glass is made by "stuffing" ions into the empty spaces so that the glass is under very high compressive stress. It's really known as "High ion exchange glass" This in turn, gives it very high compressive strength. However, it does have a significant downside that never gets mentioned: Shock absorption and scratches can cause later cracks and shattering. This is just a fact of life. When you place the outer layer under compressive strain, and then begin to compromise part of the outer layer, or begin to stress it, you can eventually cause release of those compressive forces. Once partially compromised, it may seem to be good, but can fail instantly.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by Osmium on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @11:20AM (#4843278)
>It's probably more likely that aliens took his phone, broke it, and placed it back on his counter, than the glass having shattered from thermal shock.

Completely agreed. That's exactly why I said "shattering from thermal shock is absurd, and the glass must be under some kind of stress from how it's secured to the phone" in the parent comment.

To further your explanation a little, the reason the outermost layer is put into compressive stress is that, when it's scratched, the stress will cause the crack to "close up" and so the glass doesn't shatter. Unfortunately, the interior of the glass is under tensile stress as a result, and so if the scratch happens to be deep enough to reach that tensile-stressed layer then the glass will shatter. Putting the glass in a case which alters this carefully managed stress state, i.e. by trying to attach it to a rim that's acting to pull it slightly apart, is what can cause this kind of failure.

But this is all speculation on my part, and even if true the reality might be more subtle.

Edit: I just found a good article from AnandTech that explains some of this. Take note of the first figure in particular.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4225/the-ipad-2-review/13

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by prawks on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:13AM (#4842883)
For further information and examples, see Prince Rupert's Drops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Ruperts_Drop

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by Kylekramer on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:11AM (#4842574)
I suppose it is a testament to Corning's marketing that they are held in such high regard, but doesn't the Nexus 4 have the new Gorilla glass? Wired claimed it did: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/10/nexus-hands-on-with-g...
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by prawks on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:24AM (#4842643)
It does, on the front and back [1].

I took a set of keys, a fork and a pocket knife to the front and back glass panels of the Nexus 4 and couldn't get a scratch to show up anywhere. I also slipped and dropped the phone while pulling it out of my pocket this week, and it showed no signs of my fumble.

Until I see a video, I'm not really convinced, tbh. If he has a granite counter-top, and didn't set it down as gently as the author claims, it's completely probable that it cracked. People are incredibly clumsy with phones. Glass doesn't exactly have a high thermal conductivity (nor does granite/linoleum/plastic), I find it difficult to believe the glass would expand/contract enough from body heat/kitchen counter-tops.

[1] http://www.wired.com/reviews/2012/11/google-nexus-4/

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by smacktoward on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:05AM (#4842833)
People are incredibly clumsy with phones.

Which seems like a pretty good argument for not wrapping them in glass.

Too often in technology we build things that are fragile, and then blame the user when she breaks them. Tools should be designed to work with the user as they are, rather than as we would wish them to be.

[deleted]
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by kragen on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:54AM (#4842776)
Your comment is wrong from beginning to end.

Normal window glass is Mohs hardness 5.5 or so, as is unhardened steel (your fork and pocketknife); hardened steel (e.g. a metal file) is more like 6.5. That means you can scratch regular steel with glass and vice versa, with some difficulty. (Try it. I just did.) Brass (your key) is around 3 or 4, so it won't scratch glass.

There are lots of things with Mohs hardness above 5.5, including most common metals (except brass, aluminum, copper) and most rocks.

Sand is almost never made up of glass particles. It's often made up of crystalline quartz (Mohs hardness 7) which can scratch regular glass easily. Gorilla Glass has Mohs hardness of about 9, so quartz won't scratch it.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by Osmium on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @12:07PM (#4843546)
Notable, then, is the fact that Apple felt the need to make their lens covers out of sapphire (Mohs hardness of 9). If they were using Gorilla glass on the back, and it has the hardness you claim, then surely that isn't necessary?
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by kragen on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @03:01PM (#4844362)
I have no idea if Apple was using Gorilla Glass on the back, nor did I know whether GG is harder or softer than sapphire. I'd assume softer, since it's just a glass, right?

http://www.corning.com/docs/specialtymaterials/pisheets/PI23... gives its Vickers hardness as 701 kgf/mm^2, which http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness#... would seem to place in the 5-6.5 range of the Mohs scale, nowhere close to 9. However, Vickers is a scale of resistance to plastic deformation, while Mohs is a (highly nonlinear!) scale of resistance to abrasion, so perhaps take that with a gram of potassium chloride.

Other random places suggest sapphire's Vickers hardness is around 1800-2200 kgf/mm^2, which is substantially harder than the number Corning's brochure gives for Gorilla Glass.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by ktsmith on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @12:28PM (#4843635)
Optical sapphire has different properties than gorilla glass. There can be reasons other than hardness for using a material as a lens cover.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by Osmium on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @12:40PM (#4843700)
Agreed; but Apple did state specifically that they were using it because it was more durable. In regards to optical properties, some people are speculating the sapphire is the cause of the iPhone 5's worse susceptibility to lens flare.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:24AM (#4842933)
Deleted. Thanks for making your comment standalone so nobody else has to waste their time reading mine.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by kragen on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @04:33PM (#4844884)
I'm glad it is helpful!
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by Osmium on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:16AM (#4842596)
It's not unlikely that they only went with Gorilla glass for the screen-side of the device to cut costs, though I know the article says otherwise, so maybe not. They could've also mounted it in a way other than what was designed (i.e. put it under tensile stress).

As for Corning, in fairness to them they were instrumental in the development of this type of glass and own a fair few patents, so it's not just marketing. They developed it originally in the 60s, though I imagine a lot has changed since then.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by yen223 on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:20AM (#4842915)
Scratch resistance and toughness are orthogonal to each other. Even diamonds will crack when applied with a certain force.

From what I understand, Gorilla Glass is only scratch-proof, not tough.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by pdeuchler on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:38AM (#4842700)
I disagree. It's how the glass is attached to the phone.

This is just a theory, but I've discussed it with People Who Know Things (TM) and they all have agreed that it's more than likely a small sliver of plastic or glass (or maybe just a tiny dirt particle) has become lodged in the space between the glass and the phone during fabrication. 9/10 phones don't have these defects, but when you're manufacturing millions of phones 90% still leaves a lot of bad phones.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:06AM (#4842553)
I've never seen anybody use an iPhone 4 without a bumper due to AntennaGate. The bumper keeps the glass from coming into full contact with a surface, and that's probably why the iPhone 4 seems to be less affected by this problem. The lesson appears to be to always use a bumper with glass backed phone.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by nicholassmith on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:23AM (#4842630)
Not sure whereabouts you're from, but in the UK AntennaGate wasn't particularly concerning and I know plenty of people that kept their iPhones case-free, myself included, without glass shattering issues. Unless they were really, really silly and dropped it onto concrete from high up.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by lysol on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:42AM (#4842722)
This is complete conjecture. Plenty of people use their 4s 4Ss without bumpers or cases with no problem, including me. It has be a design flaw outside of the base materials involved.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by xutopia on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:50AM (#4842758)
That's anecdotal though. My wife broke her 4S twice. What does that say?
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by Osmium on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:12AM (#4842577)
I don't think you necessarily need a case to benefit: I don't use a case but slipped on a marble floor once and dropped the phone straight onto the floor, causing it to bounce a few times. The rim of the glass dented (what looks to be a thin plastic coating on the side of the glass?) but nothing shattered.

In any case, IIRC, speculation is that only the screen side of the iPhone uses Gorilla glass, but I'm not sure if that's changed with recent generations. But even without Gorilla glass, you can still use "standard" toughened glass that, correctly mounted, should never shatter just from the sort of thermal shock described in the article.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by snuze on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:30AM (#4842670)
I have a 4S that slipped from my pant pocket onto a rough concrete floor from sitting height. The rough surface dented the plastic trim, causing the glass to shatter. I believe they went with the plastic trim due to the problems of joining glass and metal. But the plastic trim is the iPhone 4's Achilles' heel.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by reidmain on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:01AM (#4842817)
If we want to get anecdotal I used my iPhone 4 from launch with no bumper (even after I got the free one). I even dropped the phone three feet directly on it's top left corner and only the dented the metal band.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by MattBearman on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:58AM (#4842792)
Twice I've dropped my un-cased iPhone 4s from a height of around 1 meter onto a solid tiled floor, and to my surprise not even a scratch.

Maybe I just got lucky, but in my limited experience, the case is not needed to protect the glass.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:07AM (#4842843)
Most phones will usually survive such a drop. It all depends on how it lands. Phones with a glass back have double the number of ways that they can break when they fall, but it's still less likely to break than not. Drop it enough times and it will eventually break.

But the OP is talking about breakage due to thermal shock, not to physical shock.

Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by yardie on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @10:48AM (#4843081)
The glass on the iPhone is actually quite resilient. The problem is the drop on one of the 4 corners (technically 8). At least that is my theory. All of the broken glasses I've seen have started at one corner and radiate out.
Re:Nexus 4′s Glass Back, the Worst Idea Since the Last Phone... by wtracy on Wednesday November 28, 2012 @09:26AM (#4842654)
The sound design on that video was brilliant.