In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. It’s very difficult for me to understand how anyone could view this structural dynamic as collaborative or horizontal.
If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand.
>"The andon method is really the J-mode in miniature. Information flows laterally, authority to act is widely distributed, and the people closest to the problems are the ones who fix it."
Does your definition of a 'horizotal culture' actually mean forcing people to work overtime just to hit deadlines? Are you sure you haven't completely confused 'horizotally' with 'top-down'
[1] https://www.jftc.go.jp/dk/guideline/unyoukijun/romuhitenka.h...
P.S. The link I provided is an official directive from the Japan Fair Trade Commission (JFTC) explicitly warning large corporations to stop ruthlessly suppressing their subcontractors' labor costs.
This country’s economy is built on the sacrifice of others.
Walmart and Amazon ruthlessly squeeze their suppliers. They achieve low prices on some things and try to corner the market on others (and then raise prices). What I don't see them achieving (to the contrary, I see them failing spectacularly at) is the quality control that some Japanese companies excel at.
So there has to be something more to it than that.
In the highly fluid U.S. corporate ecosystem, mobility is always an option. If a supplier loses a contract with Walmart, they can still pivot to another massive retailer, even if it's not quite as large.
Japan and Korea, however, have small landmasses, and the reputational risk is absolute. If a company's reputation is damaged by a single failure or a lost contract, their next job simply vanishes. Because of this existential threat, they fundamentally cannot compromise on quality. Imagine what happens to a small supplier in Japan if they are cut off by a mega-retailer like Aeon Mall. There is no backup giant waiting to take them. They are finished.
So, while geographical and structural differences dictate this extreme pursuit of quality, framing it as a "horizontal culture" is completely wrong. As an East Asian, I can confidently say that "horizontal culture" is the single most mismatched term you could possibly use to describe East Asia
Dogs and Demons: Tales from the Dark Side of Japan
japanese Business Culture and Practices: A Guide to Twenty-First Century Japanese Business Protocols
This is the picture painted for me by the article. Vertical integration eliminates subcontractors. Horizontal integration squeezes them.
> If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand.
Same story here. When switching jobs is made difficult, the incentive is not to make waves.
> Does your definition of a 'horizotal culture' actually mean forcing people to work overtime just to hit deadlines?
Yes, provided your boss is working with you.
You are ignoring a lot of quality Japanese product have been producing for more than 50 years, which answer partly why idolise Japan question. But the so called squeezing of subcontractors is true as of any other American companies if not worldwide and yet they failed ( or mostly failed ) to achieve similar standing to Japanese counterparts in terms of quality.
You argued that this article (by David Oks) is an example of "how Westerners idealize Japan." I argued that this article does not idealize Japan, and that, if you interpreted Oks' article that way, then you didn't understand the article.
I didn't say that Japanese business culture is more "horizontal" than Western business culture, or that Japanese business culture is better in any particular way. I didn't even say that the article is right or wrong about anything.
All I did was to restate the thesis statement of the article, to clarify what the article actually says.
I don't harbor any particular affinity for Japan, or Japanese business culture. I know very little about it. I'm not an authority to speak on it, and I didn't.
You assumed what I believe without understanding what I wrote. You did exactly the same thing to me that you did to David Oks.
The overarching tone of this entire article is clear: it is searching for something in Japanese culture that is supposedly missing in Western culture. Throwing in a few lines of critique doesn't negate the fact that it is fundamentally romanticizing the system. The author explicitly dresses it up with nice words like 'horizontally flowing information' and 'consensus.'
But that is purely a Western academic fantasy. It completely ignores the extreme vertical hierarchy, the lack of geographic mobility, and a social structure with zero socio-economic exit strategies. He looked at it entirely through a Western lens. Now, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing in a vacuum—the way I see myself is different from how you see me, and there are pros and cons.
But the Andon culture acts like a Panopticon. If you pull it too much, it accumulates and ruins your performance review. There's a reason Toyota had massive issues with power harassment (pawahara), leading to a new employee's suicide. Frankly, as a Korean, I don't like criticizing Japan because people immediately assume I'm just being hateful due to our colonial history. I was purely pointing out the stark differences based on my own lived experience.
And now you're making cowardly excuses after initially being sarcastic and implying I couldn't read? Look, you make good games. Your game is beautiful, and your site is great. But let's just be honest here. If you just admitted it and said 'my bad,' we could move on. We are both adults. Yes, I got annoyed and spoke harshly, but let's not pretend your initial comment wasn't sarcastic. Don't treat people like idiots.
Let's just apologize to each other and end this. I've heard that the Japanese game industry actually does have a somewhat horizontal structure, so I understand why you might base your perspective on that. It's a natural cognitive bias.
Honestly, if you hadn't spoken so aggressively first, I would have just acknowledged your point and moved on. What's the point of fighting on the internet? Also, if you ever need a Korean translation for your game, let me know, I can help you out.
Anyway, I was pissed off and snapped at you, and since we are both adults responsible for our actions, I apologize for the harsh words on my end. But let's be real—it's perfectly valid for me to be offended when you accuse me of not properly reading the article.
Please go back and reread your own comment and ask yourself if it was truly a fair critique
There's almost no way these guys (low pass filter)can see the water they have been breathing since they were born unless they've had first hand experience that wakes them up (high pass filter)
Add to that (Western) (indie?) game-makers and hafu are both predominantly right-wing.. far-right, if you take a global perspective. Polite to the point of being offensive, though. :) Perhaps there are very very few opportunities in which to feel a loss of control in real life, or trained since infancy
That said, there's seems to be still a lot of useful info in article that bears "bookmarking"..
Anyways..
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Especially
Jesuit to Marxist or Marxist to Catholic is always interesting, but it's not quite an 180 life changer
Like sending Mormon kids to spread the faith in Indi-- er, Maharashtra
Unless said mobility is paid for by the company.
As part of the job rotation mentioned in the article, larger Japanese companies are also notorious for reassigning job locations, often at short notice and with zero care for family dynamics. Hence the tanshin-fu'nin phenomenon, where the husband is sent off to work at some factory or regional branch in the sticks for years while the wife brings up the kids elsewhere.
Anyway, you clearly know a lot about Japan, and I apologize if it came across as me just badmouthing the country. My original intent was simply to point out how drastically different things look from an East Asian perspective compared to a Western one. I didn't mean to keep painting Japan in a negative light—every system obviously has its pros and cons. I actually have fond memories of the unique, close-knit, family-like atmosphere that Japanese companies have
I think main difference is that there is very little tradition of company thinking they own something to the workers, and (I think) far more of companies just buying out their competition and then gutting any tradition and institutional knowledge within
> (Moving in Japan involves massive upfront rental fees like shikikin (deposit) and reikin (key money), making the physical act of relocating extremely prohibitive.)
I don't think that part is all that different? While we don't have "key money" it's still a big deal to take your life and move it somewhere else
The article's thesis statement isn't "the Japanese approach is better," but that business practices like these bundle together, that they're very difficult to change, and that each bundle has different advantages and disadvantages.
Ironically, you've proved a deeper point about how amusing HN is: we all tend to project our fantasies onto the articles we're discussing, even if we didn't fully read or understand the article.