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Re:You are committing a crime right now by chii on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @06:29AM (#4813793)
i look forward to the day when a law is written in a formal language (such as mathematics), such that a machine can be used to apply it, and that no ambiguity exists. Thus, you can a head of time, tell if a deed will break any existing law before performing the deed.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by nathan_long on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @09:23AM (#4814300)
As computer programs show us, the only way to remove ambiguity is to be incredibly specific. In practice, this would mean laws that are very, very long, and have to revised very frequently.

Why? Because you can't formalize away the fact that humans can't think of everything ahead of time. We make laws about your rights regarding messages you write on paper, then telegraphs and telephones and email come along. Either you try to interpret the law to cover them, or you revise your definitions of "messages" to include or exclude them.

In a "specify everything" system, everything that the courts currently interpret would have to be sent back to the legislature. The effect would depend on what you do with gray areas in court.

Option 1 would be "if a case is ambiguous, put it on hold until the legislature clarifies the law." That would clog up the courts and effectively merge the court and the legislature.

Option 2 would be "decide cases based strictly on existing law and let the legislature revise things for the next go round." That would create a lot of absurd outcomes, where a small loophole, with no ability to apply "common sense", means innocent people are convicted or guilty people are freed.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by rapind on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @09:36AM (#4814352)
Option 2 would almost be workable if you had a very streamlined system for implementing revisions, to prevent more than one individual from exploiting a loophole before it's closed.

Like a group of elected officials who's only job is to close these loopholes without massive fanfare and a simple vote. A process that is incredibly fast and decisive in order to get double digits done per day.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by saidajigumi on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @05:49PM (#4816730)
> A process that is incredibly fast and decisive in order to get double digits done per day.

Because, y'know, having officials crank through tons of difficult decisions per day is such a supremely effective[1] and corruption-free way to create a social process. It's worked so very well for the patent system, why not for law and jursiprudence?

[1] cf. "decision fatigue": https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/do-you-suffer-fr...

Re:You are committing a crime right now by timwiseman on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @02:33PM (#4815887)
I do not believe we want such a system even if it were possible.

Many things involve context (it is illegal to murder someone, but a killing in the context of self-defense is often not murder). Even where context is not explicitly recognized by the law, we want judgment and discretion to exist (speeding because you are drag racing is very different than speeding to a hospital with a bleeding passenger.)

Re:You are committing a crime right now by nkohari on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @08:20AM (#4814100)
This is quite possibly one of the most dystopian thoughts I've ever heard.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by nateabele on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @09:26AM (#4814311)
Really? Really??

So, you're saying that's more dystopian than the thought of secret laws for 'national security', on top of a body of laws that already spans over 200,000 pages, whereby even with non-poorly-written laws, you're still likely breaking one every single day?

Because that's what we have now. So if those are my options, then shit yes, I will take mathematical certainty of the legality of my actions any day.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by adestefan on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @04:40PM (#4816443)
It's impossible to formally define a complete system of mathematics which is the most strict logical system out there. Yet you somehow expect laws to be formally be defined.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by nateabele on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @05:19PM (#4816634)
To address this and the comment from epo, obviously such a system is not possible.

I don't expect laws to be formally defined, I just expect them to be few, sensible, and transparent. Reasonable people shouldn't have a hard time inferring whether a specific activity is illegal.

Right now, our body of law is vast, complex, opaque and uncertain. Because of this, as I said above, most people likely break the law every single day. This gives rise to tyranny by selective enforcement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement), burdened economies and reduced investments due to untested and protectionist regulatory regimes, and an overall reduction in freedom and civil liberties.

By contrast, yes, the knowability and certitude afforded by a hypothetical-but-impossible legal system based on mathematics would be preferable. This is really not a complicated idea.

“Corruptissima republica plurimae leges. [The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state.]” — Tacitus, the Annals ca. AD 69

Re:You are committing a crime right now by anigbrowl on Thursday November 22, 2012 @04:28AM (#4818116)
Right now, our body of law is vast, complex, opaque and uncertain.

So's our society. Roman law was quite a bit simpler, but justice in ancient Rome was extremely unpredictable.

By contrast, yes, the knowability and certitude afforded by a hypothetical-but-impossible legal system based on mathematics would be preferable. This is really not a complicated idea.

As HL Mencken said, 'For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.' Godel's theorem tells us that in any sufficiently expressive formal system (such as mathematics), you can have consistency or completeness, but not both. A hypothetical mathematically-precise legal system would thus yield cases that either couldn't be judged because there was no prescription for such a situation (a div zero problem, if you will), or else would yield contradictory results on the same facts at different times.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by epo on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @12:59PM (#4815355)
And you think it is a good idea to replace a non-optimal system by a guaranteed-to-be-worse one? Really? Really??
Re:You are committing a crime right now by jrogers65 on Thursday November 22, 2012 @08:17AM (#4818637)
I think it may be worth looking at just how non-optimal the current system is: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110411/full/news.2011.227.ht...

People are emotional and subjective by their very nature. It is not possible to be objective - one can only tend towards objectivity by applying constant introspection and reassessing one's world view. Nonetheless, an Ape is not capable of being a Vulcan. It is, frankly, a travesty that people's fates are being decided by other people's stomachs.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by brianchu on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @04:26PM (#4816386)
Is it "guaranteed" to be worse?

I'd argue that you really can't say anything with such certainty. If true friendly AI is ever possible (and that is up in the air), such a system would be a better one. Obviously, this is all speculation.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by CodeMage on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @08:49AM (#4814176)
Now we just need someone to write a book and make a movie. Hopefully in that order.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by stusmith1977 on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @06:42AM (#4813819)
I vaguely remember there was some discussion of this in 'Metamagical Themas' by Douglas Hofstader. It's been a while since if I read it, but if I remember correctly he drew some parallels between law and provability in maths - basically, you can either have a system of law which cannot cover everything you want to make laws about, or you have a system of law which does, but which has some undecidable laws. Feel free to correct if I've misremembered.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by shantanubala on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @07:10AM (#4813912)
You can take it a step further: until we can model human behavior mathematically, a legal system attempting to regulate that human behavior cannot be modeled in a mathematical way.

In other words, by the time we have consistent laws (in the mathematical sense), "Precrime" could already exist.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by sea6ear on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @10:35AM (#4814590)
Very similar to Godel's incompleteness theorem, or perhaps an application of it.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by wac on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @06:46AM (#4813831)
I believe that you could probably extend Godel's theorems to argue that this isn't feasible.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by smoyer on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @07:59AM (#4814047)
The "formal language of mathematics" is can only be read by those who have taken the time to understand it's symbols, syntax and grammar. Legalese generally also has very specific meaning, but without training "us mere mortals" fail to interpret it correctly too.

I guess that one positive impact of your idea would be moving mathematicians into the almost celebrity status of lawyers. They'd be fun to watch when interviewed too.

Re:You are committing a crime right now by CodeMage on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @08:48AM (#4814168)
Here's an idea: if legalese is similar to mathematics in that without training we fail to interpret it correctly, couldn't we incorporate it in our education the same way we did with mathematics?

Just to be clear, I'm not proposing to teach kids to be lawyers. Being a lawyer would be like having a PhD in mathematics. But we do teach kids basic calculus, algebra and stuff like that, so why not "basic legal stuff" (whatever it's called)?

Re:You are committing a crime right now by scott_s on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @11:29AM (#4814879)
We want some ambiguity. It inserts human judgement into the loop.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by danielweber on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @10:54AM (#4814672)
The law is not black and white, and any attempt to make it so will end very very poorly.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by jamieb on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @05:15PM (#4816606)
On the contrary, it is our current system of allowing laws that are totally ambiguous that results in the poor situation we are in now. For example, the 2nd amendment is black and white. I have the right to bear arms and that right shall not be infringed. And yet how many laws are on the books making it an offense to bear arms?

  New rule: (forall ?X (implies (and (isa ?X USCitizen) \
 (locatedIn ?X UnitedStatesLegalJurisdiction)) (bearArms ?X)))
  - Rule 2 added.

  New rule: (thereExists ?X (isa ?X USCitizen) \
  (locatedIn ?X UnitedStatesLegalJurisdiction))
  - Rule 20 Added
  
  New rule: (implies (and (locatedIn ?X ?Y) (isa ?Y USState)) \
  (locatedIn ?X UnitedStatesLegalJurisdiction)) 
  - Rule 21 Added
  ...

  New rule: (isa California USState)
  -Rule 1850-342 Added

  ...

  New rule: >(forall ?Y (implies (locatedIn ?Y California) (not (bearArms ?Y)))
  - Error: New Rule #4422 conflicts with Rule #2

  Request Ruling:
  (locatedIn JamieBriant224112344 California)
  (bearArms JamieBriant22411234)
  - Data is consistent.
The problem with our legal system is that it is expected that it is ambiguous. Those in power tell us that it is good for the law to be ambiguous. Yet what are the results:

  1. You need a law degree to even practice - control.
  2. The government can selectively prosecute - corruption.
  3. Fear of losing, even when morally right.
  4. Everyone is a criminal.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by bediger4000 on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @05:10PM (#4816592)
If that's so, why do we give every one in the USA a black-and-white obligation to know and follow the law? Ignorance of the law is no excuse, we're often told. No slack gets cut for judgement most of the time.
Re:You are committing a crime right now by ceejayoz on Wednesday November 21, 2012 @10:06AM (#4814474)
All hail the computer!