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Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by cortesoft on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @01:35PM (#48111530)
This is always the game theory of ransoms, and it is a classic example of a collective action problem (and is a form of a prisoner's dilemma).

Each individual company is probably better off paying the ransom, but everyone would be better off if no one paid a ransom.

This is why the United States, for example, has an official no-ransom policy, and why other no-ransom policies exist. You have to have something forcing the individual victim to not pay, otherwise they will always be incentivized to pay and ransoms will continue to be profitable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by gopher_space on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:07PM (#48111962)
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by esafak on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:44PM (#48112527)
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Ysx on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:00PM (#48111861)
> Each individual company is probably better off paying the ransom, but everyone would be better off if no one paid a ransom.

You're then a target known to be vulnerable and pay ransoms, so best focus on security.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by sgc on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:05PM (#48111941)
If you have to pay, at least try to negotiate 1) a guarantee that the hackers won't just do it again sometime later, and 2) full disclosure / assistance in repairing your vulnerabilities so you have some kind of head start for the future. Outside of politically motivated hackers, this would probably be reasonably successful.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by LgWoodenBadger on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:20PM (#48113115)
What possible type of guarantee could one ever hope to "negotiate" with someone who has just successfully blackmailed/ransomed/extorted?
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by sgc on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:50PM (#48113505)
We are in the context of already having to pay. You are at their mercy no matter what, so the only value of any interaction with them is based on hoping they have incentive to maintain their promises to protect their reputation etc.

It's not a good situation to be in, but still, try to make the best of it.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by kelnos on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @06:16PM (#48115330)
If the ransomware operator believes that breaking their word might make it harder to get money out of future victims, they'll keep their word.

They might not believe that, but if you're at the point where you're paying anyway, you might as well try to get that commitment from them.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Symbiote on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:19PM (#48112161)
Other hacking groups now know Instructure pays up.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by janalsncm on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:02PM (#48111881)
There’s a similar dynamic from within the hacker group itself. For the ransom group, it is better for them to be perceived as trustworthy. Pay the ransom and we won’t leak your data.

For any individual within the ransom group, they can get a big payout by selling the data.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by SoftTalker on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:08PM (#48111975)
Depends on what they actually got. Names and email addresses? Considered public and are not so valuable. Universities usually publish those in a directory anyway.

Messages between students and instructors? Likely pretty boring, but possibly embarassing or confidential for a given individual.

Grades? Could be a FERPA violation.

Critical PII such as SSNs? Probably not in the LMS to begin with.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by saghm on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:56PM (#48112717)
I have trouble imagining that a ransomware group would care about a regulation like FERPA when they've already done something criminal that would more than enough for prosecution if they got caught.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by SoftTalker on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:56PM (#48113578)
I didn't mean that the ransomware group would care... but if they got grades, that might be more valuable than if they just had names and emails and other non-very-sensitive stuff.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by bluGill on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @05:12PM (#48114672)
Those laws reduce the value though - "honest" people who are interested in such data won't be interested it from ransomware because they need to have legally obtained data. That is there are a lot of "honest but shady" uses of this data that are stopped by these laws.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by browsingonly on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:21PM (#48112196)
SSNs have been used as student IDs by particularly stupid educational institutions. The 'nice' thing about getting SSNs from students is the likelihood they'll live for a long time after the breach and thus be subject to identity theft for many years to come.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by SoftTalker on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:24PM (#48112257)
This was common years (decades, really) ago but I'd be surprised if any university today was still doing that. I guess there could still be some....
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by kelnos on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @06:17PM (#48115345)
My university stopped putting SSNs on student IDs more than 25 years ago. I'd be surprised if there are many who still do that.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if some 40 year old university IT system requires its use as an identifier, regardless of whether or not it gets printed anywhere.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Mezzie on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:45PM (#48112542)
I just spoke with a K-12 teacher I know, and she confirmed SSNs in the Canvas instance.

Yikes.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by saghm on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:59PM (#48112783)
Wow. A lot of K-12 students probably don't even know their own SSN off the top of their head, much less understand the impact of having it stored in this way. I can't fathom why it would be necessary for the SSN to be tracked by the school. At most, the school district as a whole might want a record so they could make sure kids are getting schooled but putting that into Canvas doesn't make any sense to me.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by SoftTalker on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:09PM (#48112927)
Agreed, seems wild to me that anyone in 2026 is using SSN as an identifier in a system that's not doing some kind of tax reporting. It's kryptonite for any other purpose.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Mezzie on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:16PM (#48113048)
Oh, it's insane and I recoiled when she mentioned that.

But it is 100% happening.

People do amazingly stupid things with systems, especially when they don't have enough people with the expertise to set them up properly, so they just throw things in there without stopping to think about whether or not it's a good idea.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by SoftTalker on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:51PM (#48113517)
So, a particular school system decided to add SSN to the student profile? Or Canvas requires it?
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Mezzie on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:40PM (#48114220)
It's not required. I don't know precisely what her district is doing or why - I don't work there But she unprompted brought up that a lot of the minors' PII was in there including SSNs.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by SoftTalker on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:48PM (#48114330)
It would be nice if system owners stopped thinking "we'll just ask for all the info in case we need it" and instead "we might get sued (or ransomed, or both) because we are collecting this."
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by saghm on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @07:40PM (#48116015)
I'm guessing that Canvas just sort of lets you put in whatever data you want, and someone evidently decided that putting the student's SSNs in there made sense...
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by LastTrain on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:38PM (#48113341)
They already have your SSN, as does anyone else who wants it.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Mezzie on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:40PM (#48114224)
True. It's more yikes about what this says about the technical knowledge in that school.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by zwily on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @08:22PM (#48116339)
That is a big yikes, but definitely not the norm. Most school districts switched from using SSN as their SIS identifier decades ago.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by MagicMoonlight on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:07PM (#48111963)
I don’t know if that’s really true. Nobody would really give a shit if you leaked where everyone goes to college… because it’s already on their LinkedIn or whatever.

The only people it’s valuable for is the ransomee, because they don’t want the reputational hit of having their data everywhere.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by HDBaseT on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @07:39PM (#48116009)
It really isn't as simple as that.

You are leaking email addresses that likely otherwise wouldn't be out there publicly. Whilst email addresses and names are "effectively" public, they aren't just in a one big database anyone on the planet can access.

Every single one of those email addresses will receive increased spam and phishing attempts, with more isolated information (such as School, First+Last Name, Subjects, Teachers/Lecturers, etc) the phishing attempts can be more refined.

i.e, Student receives an email that looks like its from their school (has email footer, has student name, has relevant teacher name, subject name, etc), the user is now more likely to click some sketchy link.

These little identifiers add up, especially when cross-references with other leaks. Even more problematic when most of the users wrapped up in a leak like this are under 18 too.

A lot of this stuff could be done previously, although the effort and scale to do so would of been higher/harder.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by bradyd on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:28PM (#48112315)
> For the ransom group, it is better for them to be perceived as trustworthy.

They've already proved themselves to be untrustworthy simply by ransoming you in the first place.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Ancapistani on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:06PM (#48112875)
No, they're proven themselves to be malicious. That's not the same thing at all.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by bombcar on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @01:39PM (#48111578)
You can also have the "excessive force" doctrine, where holding someone or something for ransom results in your entire country being a smoldering crater.

But just like fail2ban, this gives someone else decision-making control over your actions, which can be abused.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by BennyH26 on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:22PM (#48112219)
And that’s exactly why the incidence of kidnapping plummeted in Italy once ransom payments were made illegal
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by latexr on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:27PM (#48112295)
How does that work? I.e. say a kidnapping occurs and the ransom is paid. What kind of trouble does the paying party get into? A fine? Jail?
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by bluGill on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @05:16PM (#48114721)
So long as the potential payer knows they will get something they are going to slow down. They might pay, but suddenly becomes harder because they have to hide what they are doing. Many won't figure out how to pay.

The real value though is enough people consider themselves honest and won't do anything they know is illegal. They already hate dealing with criminals, but so long as paying is legal they might do it, but as soon as it affects their moral code they won't. The whole system collapses because just a few people saying no to paying means the kidnappers lose money on too many operations.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by latexr on Wednesday May 13, 2026 @05:38AM (#48119746)
I understand the mechanism and the point of making it illegal, that’s not the question.

What I want to know is what exactly are the lawful repercussions for the person who paid.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by jasonfarnon on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @07:37PM (#48115993)
A fine or sentence is probably on the books but it never comes to that. The main thing is to freeze the family's assets, and more importantly to publicize this procedure so the mafia or whoever knows there's no point in threatening the family.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by mlyle on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @03:37PM (#48113323)
There's one more piece that matters.

If no one pays the ransoms, but people believe that large ransoms are paid-- you still have the crime.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Ancapistani on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:34PM (#48114148)
The obverse is true - because a ransom organization is dependent upon their reputation, a company claiming to have paid and received confirmation from the group could prevent them from releasing it as well.

The general public (including the next victims) don't have a way to confirm if payment was made. ShinyHunters would have to choose between arguing publicly that they were not paid or not releasing the data to protect their own reputation...

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by mlyle on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:40PM (#48114225)
Good/funny observation. Game theory and economics are fun. :D

I do think that the partial information problem relating to new entrants into this market is interesting though.

The number of potential threat actors with partial/no information but that might speculate based on grandiose visions of ransom or outdated history is high.

We see dumb attempts at real-world ransoms/extortion which don't get paid at a pretty high clip based on this kind of partial knowledge.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by HDBaseT on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @07:42PM (#48116029)
It's an interesting idea, although I think in the heat of the moment, the last thing your org should be thinking of will be playing games with one of the most prolific hacker groups on the planet.

You'll probably get your data leaked anyways, potentially get compromised again (see Instructure situation) and end up in a way worse place if you just shut up and paid it, or let it leak normally.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Hizonner on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @01:39PM (#48111569)
... except that "policies" don't cut it. Criminal penalties for paying are what you need, and not just for payments to specific designated entities, either. The executive making the decision to pay has to have a real fear of personally spending time in actual prison.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by cortesoft on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:15PM (#48113870)
A criminal penalty is a form of policy
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by Hizonner on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @09:51PM (#48116912)
... but not the form of policy they actually have.

Except for payments to specifically sanctioned organizations, the policy is "we'd really rather you didn't do that, but whatever".

The specific sanctions don't cover most of the groups, either, and even when they do cover the group who got paid, you can't necessarily prove the people who got paid were the ones on the list. And there may be a scienter requirement even then; I don't know.

Making a list of specific criminals you can't pay is just stupid. No ransoms, ever, period, or it's da slammah.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by gnopgnip on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @01:59PM (#48111844)
US law has criminal penalties for paying a ransom to a designated criminal terrorist organization or under treasury sanctions.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by esseph on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:17PM (#48112124)
Most hacking groups don't fall under that. Some, sure.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by kjkjadksj on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @01:51PM (#48111729)
While the us stance has resulted in savings on potential ransom, it has also lead to people being kept in prison for very long time until prisoner exchanges might be worked out. That cost to an individuals life being imprisoned is probably far in excess whatever the US might pay. Plus the US prints its own monopoly money and doesn’t really play by the rules of economics anyhow ever since getting off gold standard.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by appreciatorBus on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @02:01PM (#48111870)
That ransoms today are denominated in USD and that the US might be printing too many USD has nothing to do with whether or not ransoms should be paid.

The day the USD falls, ransoms will simply be denominated in something else and the same underlying collective action problem will remain.

This is just way of avoiding the core issue by blaming something unrelated that you don't like.

A: U should clean your room, it would be better for you & the rest of your family

B: FU dad, everyone knows there's no such thing as a clean room under capitalism!!!!!

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by WillPostForFood on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @01:55PM (#48111789)
Cash is not the real cost; the cost is by agreeing to continue printing ransom money, you cause more individuals to be kidnapped.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by kjkjadksj on Saturday May 16, 2026 @01:04PM (#48161916)
Seems the rate of kidnapping is currently orthogonal from the ransom so it is unclear that they will have a linear relationship in this way as you describe.
Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by cortesoft on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:19PM (#48113939)
This is literally the exact point I am making, and the US policy isn’t about saving money.

Like you said (and like I said in my post), for an individual kidnap victim, the best option would be to pay the ransom. It is better to pay the money and be free.

However, that means a kidnap group now has more money, which will make them better able to kidnap another victim and demand more money.

The point of a “no ransom” policy is that it takes the choice away from the individual, who would choose to pay it, and changes the game theory to make kidnapping not worth it.

The whole reason you need a policy at all is BECAUSE it is better for the person to pay the ransom.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by protocolture on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @09:36PM (#48116811)
>but everyone would be better off if no one paid a ransom.

I doubt if everyone would be better off if state level actors found and used these vulnerabilities instead of ransom seekers.

Re:Instructure Pays Ransom to Canvas Hackers by ergocoder on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @10:00PM (#48116960)
Why don't someone pretend to be ransom hacker, take the money, and release the hacked data anyway?

This will progress the game theory to the point where nobody will pay ransom because the thieves won't honor the deals anyway.