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Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by bronco21016 on Monday March 23, 2026 @10:53AM (#47490370)
> The runway should be essentially 'locked' when in use, if they don't want screens in every ground vehicle that may cross a runway, at least display it at runway entrances.

It does, the Runway Status Lights System uses radar to identify when the runway is in use and shows a solid bright red bar at every entrance to the runway. I'm curious what the NTSB has to say about it for this incident. From the charts LGA does have RWSLs. I didn't check NOTAM to see if they were out of service though.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by bombcar on Monday March 23, 2026 @01:19PM (#47492394)
Emergency vehicles almost always can override/ignore warning devices (think firetrucks running red lights) which can cause "fun" for some value of "death/dismemberment/vehicle loss".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Xf7aU5Udo

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by red_admiral on Monday March 23, 2026 @01:49PM (#47492788)
Airport emergency services are presumably trained in this, but since a plane cannot stop easily (or not at all on takeoff after V1), I seem to remember the general rule is that even emergency vehicles with lights and sirens on give way to planes, and don't enter runways without permission from the tower.

In the audio released by the BBC, the fire truck DID get permission from the tower to cross something, I can't tell if it was the runway in question. However, to cross the red runway lights if lit, you normally need that spelled out too something like "truck one, cross four delta, cross red lights". This did not happen on the BBC audio, which could mean one of many things.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by f1shy on Monday March 23, 2026 @02:07PM (#47493036)
They got clearance, which was overruled by a STOOOP!

The guy was alone operating 2 frequencies, had an emergency of another aircraft going on… is not so easy as many commenters from the armchair are insinuating

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by ApolloFortyNine on Monday March 23, 2026 @04:16PM (#47494531)
>The guy was alone operating 2 frequencies, had an emergency of another aircraft going on… is not so easy as many commenters from the armchair are insinuating

I'm not saying its easy, I'm actually specifically saying it's such a hard job we should have automated most of it away ages ago. If the only thing stopping an accident like this is an ATC employee, this _will_ happen in the future.

They came up with rail signals long before the idea of a computer even existed. It's hard to believe voice only communication of routes and runway access is the best path forward. Especially when passenger airliners are involved.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by bronco21016 on Monday March 23, 2026 @04:44PM (#47494844)
Automation emboldens policy makers to reduce human count because of the perceived increase in safety. This results in less eyes and brains monitoring for situations of automation failure or abnormalities. The corner stone of aviation safety over the last several decades has been having multiple, highly trained and experienced operators on station monitoring aviation systems to catch those moments when something goes wrong. Additionally, a culture where those operators are encouraged to speak up and be heard when something goes wrong without fear of being reprimanded is essential.

Automation is fantastic. We use it extensively in aviation. However, the long tail of 9s in reliable requires constant vigilance and oversight because anything that can go wrong will.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by hypeatei on Monday March 23, 2026 @04:34PM (#47494720)
Who's entering the signal that the runway is locked? What if they screw up?

There are so many failure modes with vehicles and planes using the same tarmac that I fail to see how anything would be worth developing here that doesn't eliminate that requirement altogether.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by renewiltord on Monday March 23, 2026 @05:09PM (#47495148)
Currently it’s automated at this airport: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl

Presumably this is lack of familiarity with this on the part of firefighters.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by hypeatei on Monday March 23, 2026 @06:38PM (#47496094)
Ah, okay. I suppose it'll be part of the investigation but I wonder if the RELs were indiciating an unsafe runway which prompted the firetruck to ask or if they always ask for permission. Either way, I think my assesment is still correct: there are a lot of edge cases that neither lights nor humans are going to stop. O'Hare apparently has tunnels/underpasses for ground vehicles to use which seems basically foolproof for avoiding collisions like this.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by red_admiral on Tuesday March 24, 2026 @05:45AM (#47500399)
No-one goes on a runway without positive ATC clearance, even emergency vehicles.

In Germany at least, if the runway access is "red" then the only thing that lets you cross the lights is an explicit ATC command to cross the reds as well as general clearance, and that's part of training and procedures because it's a semi-automated backup system to the human primary system. RED MEANS STOP is drilled into everyone precisely to reduce the number of runway incursions/collisions.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by _moof on Monday March 23, 2026 @02:39PM (#47493449)
They got clearance and then obviously didn't bother to look outside, which is a dereliction of the basic responsibility of operating any vehicle on an airport surface. Clear left, clear right, then cross the hold short line.

(See my other comment below if you're tempted to say something about visibility.)

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by f1shy on Monday March 23, 2026 @03:37PM (#47494124)
They could not see, because delta crosses in diagonal to the runway, such that the plane comes from behind (and the right side) so the driver has no chance to see. The truck was moving fast which is ok, because you want to clear the runway as fast as possible.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by _moof on Monday March 23, 2026 @06:49PM (#47496191)
It doesn't matter what the orientation of the taxiway is. If you can't see when you're stopped straight on the taxiway centerline, you stop at an angle instead.

There is never an excuse for not visually clearing a runway before entering it.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by kaliqt on Monday March 23, 2026 @11:29PM (#47498307)
Then peak your head out of the window, that’s not an excuse.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by bombcar on Monday March 23, 2026 @02:14PM (#47493137)
From where I'm sitting, it's not really "the fault" of ATC (even though it is) simply because I'm not trusting enough of ATC even when they're on "my side".

When cleared across a runway I'm still going to be looking in all directions, and proceed as fast as I can. I also look both ways at railway crossings even if the guards are up and silent.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by __turbobrew__ on Monday March 23, 2026 @02:36PM (#47493400)
I wonder if visibility was good enough that looking both ways before crossing the runway would have prevented this.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by bombcar on Monday March 23, 2026 @02:39PM (#47493440)
That'll be one of the things the NTSB investigates.

I also wonder if you're down to a "one controller" scenario if it would be better for there to be once frequency, not a ground/air split.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by alistairSH on Monday March 23, 2026 @04:03PM (#47494384)
Or perhaps a "one controller" scenario is just terrible policy.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by f1shy on Monday March 23, 2026 @03:38PM (#47494140)
No. it wasn't. Delta crosses 04 in diagonal, so basically they should have taken the head out of the window and look behind. They had the clearance, so they just tried to cross. The problem is for some reason they did not hear the "Truck 1 stop" call.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by toast0 on Monday March 23, 2026 @03:33PM (#47494088)
All vehicles can override/ignore warning devices. Doesn't make it right. Emergency vehicles should not override/ignore train or plane crossings. Trains and Planes don't care about flashing lights. Crossing an active runway requires clearance for safety.

In this case, from the available information, the drivers of the fire truck thought they were cleared, and proceeded to cross while a plane was cleared to land. I'm not familiar with ATC ground radio to know if they were actually cleared or not, but it seems clear that that the drivers thought they were cleared.

Investigation reports will give us more details.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by bronco21016 on Monday March 23, 2026 @04:38PM (#47494765)
From the FAA’s site [1] on RWSL:

> If an Air Traffic Control clearance is in conflict with the Runway Entrance Lights, do not cross over the red lights. Contact Air Traffic Control and advise that you are stopped due to red lights. (ex.: "Orlando Ground, Ops 2 is holding short of runway 36 Left at Echo due to red lights").

Airports are highly controlled environments unlike typical motor vehicle roadways and generally the same rules apply for aircraft, vehicles, and equipment on airport surface movement areas. From all sources I can find, if the RWSLs were working they should have been red and nobody should have entered the runway without further clarification from ATC.

[1] https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by kaliqt on Monday March 23, 2026 @11:27PM (#47498297)
Anyone can override if needed, not just emergency personnel.

However that is not permissible here. Airplanes are similar to trains, you have to stop and wait and there are no exceptions.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by deathanatos on Monday March 23, 2026 @06:12PM (#47495855)
> From the charts LGA does have RWSLs. I didn't check NOTAM to see if they were out of service though.

Just to add…

The vehicle in question got clearance from ATC to cross the runway. ATC revoked it shortly afterwards (by radioing "Tower, Truck 1. Stop truck 1. Stop! Stop Truck 1, STOP!" (followed by the incident; the next transmission is go-arounds.)); presumably, ATC realized the impending danger. I am assuming that requesting permission from ATC to enter a runway in an emergency is a permitted action, so RWSL aren't going to prevent this type of incident.

I don't think we know why Truck 1 did not heed the stop warning (e.g., if it came too later, got lost, etc.), but I am thinking that if they understood the indication from the RWSL, they overrode it by getting clearance, because they needed to cross the runway due to the (first) emergency.

So, same. Will be curious to see what NTSB says. I suspect something about resource management: there seems to be too much happening, too quickly, for that one ATC controller. While perhaps the controller makes mistakes, the mistakes appear to my untrained ear as "reasonable", and I'd like the system to be such that reasonable mistakes don't cost lives.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by bronco21016 on Monday March 23, 2026 @07:13PM (#47496403)
I’d love a source indicating it’s permissible to override the RWSL for emergency vehicles. In all training materials I’ve seen for pilots, it’s clear that an ATC clearance does NOT permit overriding the RWSL indication precisely for this scenario where ATC inadvertently provided a bad clearance. The direction to pilots is to query the controller to give them a chance for a second look and trap the error of the incorrect clearance. I linked the FAA page in another post where it provides direction to ground vehicles as well. Tomorrow I will have more time to research but this might be one of those things buried in a difficult to find Advisory Circular or something.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by deathanatos on Monday March 23, 2026 @09:58PM (#47497794)
(Obligatory IANA-ATC.)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl

From what I've found it seems like the indication of the RWSL should match the clearance from ATC. This to me suggests a ground vehicle is permitted to request:

> • DO NOT proceed when the Runway Entrance Lights have extinguished without an Air Traffic Control clearance. Runway Status Lights verifies an Air Traffic Control clearance, it DOES NOT substitute for an Air Traffic Control clearance.

> • If an Air Traffic Control clearance is in conflict with the Runway Entrance Lights, do not cross over the red lights. Contact Air Traffic Control and advise that you are stopped due to red lights.

The page never directly states it¹, but the implication is that a ground vehicle can request clearance, and the clearance from the ATC can be granted, & RWSL should match. If they do not match, red RWSL prevails, and green RWSL are not a substitute for clearance.

Truck 1 did request clearance. So then the question for this incident would be "what was the status of the RWSL when Truck 1 entered the runway?"² If they were red, according to the linked page, Truck 1 should not have entered the RW regardless of the clearance, and the mismatch between ATC verbally granting clearance & the RWSL system seems problematic. But, I don't know what the actual status of the RWSL was, so.

… hopefully, the NTSB report in a few months will contain an explanation.

¹I am treating this page as a non-authoritative explainer, not as legal regulations.

²The one video I've seen of the incident is not clear enough for me to make out the RWSL.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by fc417fc802 on Tuesday March 24, 2026 @12:15AM (#47498531)
This was an emergency vehicle actively responding to an emergency, not a regular vehicle. I'm not sure if that changes SOP but it certainly seems worth considering.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by roncesvalles on Monday March 23, 2026 @09:56PM (#47497773)
>I don't think we know why Truck 1 did not heed the stop warning

I read a theory that there's only one radio in the truck that needs to be switched between frequencies.

Presumably the truck driver got clearance from the tower then immediately switched away to the frequency that the firefighters use to coordinate.

Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by rogerrogerr on Tuesday March 24, 2026 @12:15AM (#47498532)
Not a chance any airport is letting firetrucks drive around in the movement area without comms to tower/ground.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by fracus on Monday March 23, 2026 @09:58PM (#47497791)
It is my understanding the buck stops with the Firetruck driver. No matter what clearance they had, they were supposed to visually check the runway was clear before crossing. The truck didn't slow down at all.
Re:Jazz CRJ9 at New York on Mar 22nd 2026, collision with fi... by fnordfnordfnord on Monday March 23, 2026 @10:17PM (#47497918)
Video has been released showing that the REL's were operational at LaGuardia during the crash. It isn't definitive that the REL's that are facing the fire truck's view are working but they will have video and we will know soon.

Tweet showing the video of the collision:

https://x.com/MCCCANM/status/2036131991792550351?s=20

Here is a diagram showing their locations.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/LGA.pd...