(article author here): Fair comment, but at least for me the https://www.gov.uk/eta flow still just leads into the double upsell of the mobile app. My problem is more with governments (all of them, this is just one instance) increasingly pushing people to use native Apps and with that to the mercy of Google/Apple.

The article is definitely a bit over the top, it is just my personal blog and me trying to write a bit more funny to counter the bland LLMs. Your opinion can vary on if I have succeeded or overshot on that.

> My problem is more with governments ... pushing people to ... Google/Apple.

It's worse than that. Many municipalities and schools etc only post public notices to Facebook/Twitter or some similarly hostile environment.

> The article is definitely a bit over the top, it is just my personal blog and me trying to write a bit more funny to counter the bland LLMs.

But. Your headline contradicts your story. The only excuse for that (and it is weak) is when writers don't get to write their own headlines (this is common) and the editors who do write the headlines are corrupted for clicks or drama (but I repeat myself).

This way lies madness, the road to hell, etc.

This is not the way of the honest writer.

I wrote about my thinking here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47168225). I do not have a story and I am not a writer that has editors so I have no excuse but my personal taste ;). You will disagree with that, but just wanted to mention it so it does not seem like I am ignoring it.

I appreciate your response, and your candor.

I'll push back on one point: when I said "contradicts your story", I meant that the headline and the story (article content) are in conflict. So you do have a story/article, and yes your headline is squishy enough to argue misinterpretation, but it's clearly not honest.

So the tension is that the boring but honest headline of "Applying for a UK visa without a smartphone requires a few extra clicks that are easy to overlook" doesn't serve the (apparently higher) purpose of drawing people in.

I was expecting outrage in your article, but I only found inconvenience. That's manipulative in my opinion, and I would avoid reading future articles on your site based on that experience. Do as thou wilt, obviously, but that's my take!

Your topic (smartphone/appstore requirements) is a real issue! I'm glad to hear that the UK hasn't gone all-in, yet.

What you're saying is sort of fair. It's 4 clicks from https://www.gov.uk/eta to get to the beginning of the online application process:

1. The first hyperlink in the Overview section takes you to this page: https://www.gov.uk/eta/apply

2. Now click the big green button marked "Start now" in the "Apply online" section

3. Then click the link at the bottom of the page marked "I cannot apply on the UK ETA app"

4. Then click again "Continue application online"

And now you can start.

Realistically this is probably 2 clicks too many and, whilst on the face of it it's not that much effort, it might be enough to bamboozle the tech phobic/less capable - of which there are still many (and not just older generations, either), or your grasp of English isn't great. There's just a bit too much going on - too much content - with some of these pages, and I don't really see a good reason to bury the links all the way at the bottom the way they are at present.

But it will be simpler on a phone, as you don't need to do the same manual entering of data, and don't need to get a photo of your passport and a photo of yourself onto your computer.

> I don't really see a good reason to bury the links all the way at the bottom the way they are at present.

I'd not be surprised if the number of issues when using the app is significantly lower than doing it online. Particularly if lots of people are using phones to visit these sites anyway.

The issue is the obvious anti patterns in the following flow. While its not particularly egregious, someone has taken intentional steps to make it convuluted. Engaging with gov services should not feel like trying to unsubscribe from amazon prime:

Go to https://www.gov.uk/eta/apply

Click "Start Now" under apply online section (that is distinct from the app section)

Get taken to page saying to get the app, scroll to bottom and click small link "I cannot apply on the app"

Get taken to a help getting the app page, scroll to the bottom and click small link "Continue application online"

Finally be in right place

But there's really good reason for this. On the app it can use NFC to read your passport data exactly. Until WebNFC supports reading passports, it is a much more efficient way.

It's not like they are getting some long term benefit of having the app on your phone. It's just because WebNFC can't read passports.

That is not a `good reason`, that is `convenience` and it shouldn't be used to push to install an app from increasingly hostile nations/corporations.

> It's not like they are getting some long term benefit of having the app on your phone. It's just because WebNFC can't read passports.

The same way we complain that Facebook, Tiktok, etc gather too much data from app install, so can a government agency.

You are literally sharing biometric passport information with the government for an ETA in this app. Information sharing is the whole point.

The information on my passport is of comparatively little value compared to the information on my devices. Most states could get my passport information with little more than a friendly request to my government, same for most, access to my phone however.

Why give up more information than is strictly necessary, so you can tap your passport on your phone? Not convincing imo.

Because for many people with poor eyesight, poor English or computer literacy tapping a passport is far easier than typing the data in with no risk of transcription errors.

Is it really convoluted? It's 2 clicks? If the mobile app solution is the better and simpler choice for most people, wouldn't it make sense for them to recommend it?

Yeah it's really overblown. I applied for an ETA online last year and it took probably about 15 min from searching for where to do it to the confirmation email dropping in. It was pretty painless, much more so than the ESTA process for travelling to the US&A and even that one isn't particularly difficult.

Its not so much the process that is the complaint here, as that the UK government is intentionally using Big Tech style anti-patterns to push engagement in a particular manner. It's a dangerous precedent (and not even close to the first time they've done similar).

> ESTA process for travelling to the US&A and even that one isn't particularly difficult

Dodging the google ads & promoted search results that take you to clones of the application form that charge 2-3x is the hardest part.

That's... What the article is about

But the article seems to take a very roundabout way for it, and still doesn't link the direct version. I just did the same thing, googling 'UK ETA', clicked the top result, then clicked the most salient link on the result page ('Apply'), then clicked the most salient button on the next page which is a big green 'apply now button', though it is after the links to the app (but those links are not big and green). Admittedly I do have a decent amount of experience with the UK government's website which tends to have this pattern of a few pages of explanations about the thing before you get to the form you need to fill in, but it surprises me that it was that hard to find.

(Edit: ah, no, I see: the next steps are quite dark-pattern pushing you towards the app. Yeah, that's quite shitty)

No, I think he searched for the ETA App and was disappointed at the lack of emphasis on an alternative to the app once you are in it. If you just search the web for ETA and gov.uk it takes you straight to the online portal (which also asks for feedback as it's a service in Beta). The gov.uk website is neutral between you using the app or the online portal.

The only point I can see here is that once you are in the app it keeps encouraging you to use it and doesn't keep suggesting you might like to use the online portal instead. But I don't understand the initial premise about not using app stores. If the author didn't want to use an app store, why did he download an app instead of going to gov.uk?

If you don't want to use the app, why would you search for the app?

gov.uk is not neutral at all!

"The easiest way to apply is on the app"

"By applying on the UK ETA app you're more likely to: complete your application quicker; get a faster decision".

"You should apply online if: you cannot download the app on your phone; the person you are applying for is not with you"

All of these are things you see over the course of the THREE (!) pages between https://www.gov.uk/eta and the actual start of the online form, https://apply-for-an-eta.homeoffice.gov.uk/apply/electronic-...

It really gives you the runaround and makes it very clear than the non-app flow is a weird, second-tier option.

>>> How Many Hoops Are Too Many Hoops?

>> It's really not that many hoops

> That's... What the article is about

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

No, that link goes to the second “download our app” screen shown in the OP.

That has a link to actually applying online.

They are definitely using a dark pattern to push people towards the app, but it is possible to apply online.

You have to click twice more (on two more web pages) that you can't/won't use the app to start the online application.

The "Start now" button ought to skip all that.

And of course, this is not a web app but a web site with basic HTML forms not requiring a whatng cartel web engine?

Did you even read the article and tried going through the process? Suggesting the user to download the app is front and center and the link to apply online is tucked away in a link at the bottom. Not great, but fine, I'll live with that. But that's not the end is it? The user clicks continue online application, then why does it still give you another screen nudging you towards using the app? Making users feel like they are doing something wrong by not using the app.

It's not difficult, however it does violate privacy. It is one more brick in the wall for requiring that all citizens own smartphones. And smartphones themselves are quite bad for privacy. When I frequent a business and they tell me use their smartphone app, my response varies from "no," to "I'm not downloading your fucking app." (depending on how polite the business has been)

100% of smart phone apps are bad. There are NO exceptions to this, by virtue of the fact that you must own and use the smartphone to access them. We stand to lose a lot when we finally lose this fight. (and I'm sure we will)

100%?

I once published an app to help people track their budget. It didn't even request any permissions, not even internet. How is it bad?

I wrote an app for a university to let researchers track bat sightings in caves and upload it to a database for population tracking. How is it bad?

Do I need a smartphone to use it? If so, then it's bad.

It's weird that many people don't rely not everything should be mobile-first.

Let me know when researchers want to start lugging around laptops when they go splunking in caves to record bat populations and I'll tell them about the web portal.

It's well known that bat research didn't even exist prior to 2007. Steve Jobs famously took the stage and declared, "I have finally achieved bat research!"

I'm sorry, did you expect a smartphone app to not require a smartphone?

Should we get mad at books for requiring you to know how to read? Should we get mad at stores for requiring you to use currency to pay?

Citizens don't need an ETA. Only non-citizens are affected.

there's a lot of promoted scam tho on google. This one : https://getetauk.co.uk/fr/ got me when i was a rush at the airport and i paid 125€ for the fucking eta without confirmation

The Australian ETA process, on the other hand, actually can only be done via an Android or iOS mobile app: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-li...

I was so stunned I was like, surely this must violate some government rule around universal access and service? But I guess not.

What's more, the app is so buggy reddit is filled with support cases of people not being able to complete the process in time and sometimes having to forfeit hundreds of dollars worth of tickets: https://www.reddit.com/r/AusVisa/comments/1jh2olm/having_an_...

The advice literally boils down to, some models of iPhones don't work so go borrow a friend's phone of a different model and pray that they can process your application for you.

That link clearly says you don't have to use an app.

If you are unable to use the app, you can apply online through ImmiAccount for another visa that suits your needs.

This triggered me because I've been to Australia tens of times (albeit not since 2023) and have always used my Immi account. I just logged in to check and sure enough I can still lodge an application there, no app required. Ironically I would prefer an app and will use it for my next visits because I've always found the Immi site cumbersome. But the site is still there.

For a different visa, not the ETA.

Ah. I’ve always used the subclass 651 eVisitor, without realising it was only for some European countries (or that it was different to the ETA).

The other "helpful" suggestion is that, if you can't use the app, you can apply for a regular full-blown tourist visa (Subclass 600), which costs $145 and takes weeks if not months to process.

Let me guess you have to be an Australian citizen (inmate?) to have the right to sue and then you won't have standing?

You have to be onshore to get the case in front of Admnistrative Tribunal (ACT)

Or, direct: https://apply-for-an-eta.homeoffice.gov.uk/apply/electronic-...

FWIW, the online application only allows you to apply for a single person at a time, so for a family of four you need to repeat the whole process (including payment) four times. And the automatic identification of passport and picture does not work very well. And some payments randomly fail.

It is not a very good system. They do seem to respond fast tho!