The point isn't that nothing happened, it is that nothing _that justifies_ the attack happened.

It was the point.

> - Hamas was the first to cast the stone.

Saying that it was Hamas who casted the first stone on 7 oct, is basically saying nothing happened before. Which is plain wrong. It's the consequence of decades of oppression, crimes, and unstopping massacre from the colonial occupier.

If you're going back decades, then Palestinians started started multiple civil wars against Jews before the founding of Israel. It's almost as if the Jews knew they couldn't peacefully coexist with most Palestinians on the same land.

That is simply wrong. Palestinians were first attacked by the British, supporting the Zionists, in the 1930s. Then, in 1947, during plan Dalet, Israel attacked Palestine and the surrounding Arab states.

Before that, of course, they colonized Palestine under the shield of the British empire.

An easier way to disarm this argument is: Why did the Zionists come and displace the Palestinians? And who would respond peacefully if you try to displace them?

No, Arab riots targeted Jewish communities starting in the 1920s through the 1930s. Up through the 1930s, Jewish immigration and land acquisition was by purchase of land, and the areas they occupied were sparsely populated. This talk of "colonization" is ahistorical propaganda.

And this also exposes the falsehood behind your question of why Zionists "displaced" Palestinians. If you don't consider purchasing land to be legal and ethical acquisition, then I don't know what to tell you. This is not what colonial displacement looks like.

Finally, as for why they were immigrating there, why not ask yourself what was happening to Jews throughout the world from 1915 up through the 1940s.

That's rich. If "talk of colonization" is propaganda, why did Herzl write about "important experiments in colonization" in Palestine? and why did Jabotinsky say "Zionism is a colonization adventure"? Why did Max Nordau say: "the existing and promising beginnings of a Jewish colonization shall be looked after and maintained till the movement will be possible on a large scale"?

Why would the founders of Zionism engage in "ahistorical propaganda" against themselves?

Zionism is one of the most brutal examples of colonialism ever, and the founders of Zionism don't disagree. Zionists are equivalent to Nazis in their treatment of the "other" and their belief in a pure ethnostate, the consequences of these beliefs are exactly the same. And young people are finally waking up to this.

Shame on you, you zionist pig.

I never mentioned jews and the point remains : It is untrue to say that Hamas started everything on 7th of oct and it is untrue to say that they were the first.

Stop diverting attention from the causes of what happened.

Nothing justifies the attack on civilians because collective punishment is a war crime and a crime against humanity.

The military objectives were entirely justified though (taking out IDF bases, attempting to capture IDF soldiers, and attempting to liberate several-thousand Palestinians being held by Israel)

Of the 6000 people from Gaza who entered Israel that day, at most 12% were responsible for one of the 800 civilian casualties in Israel. If you consider that the minority who decided to target civilians were likely responsible for targeting multiple civilians, and that some number (at least 4 who are known) of those deaths resulted from the actions of the IDF, it's entirely possible fewer than 8% of insurgents targeted and killed civilians.

All told, fewer civilians were killed proportionately than have been killed in Israel's response.

What type of resistance would you have recommended Palestinians engage in prior to October 7? They tried non-violent resistance and were met with lethal force.

Attacking the people who stole your land and murdered your family is justified in my book. I don't think I'm alone, very few people globally support Israel.

By the wide definition of of "the people who stole your land" that you're using (meaning, no Hamas person checked who stole what land), almost everyone on earth is someone who stole someone's land. If not now, than in the previous generation. In my case as an Israeli, ~4 generations ago. In your case? I don't know. Either the people your family stole the land from X years ago have the right to attack you, or your family just managed to kill all of them years ago so there's no one to demand the land back.

> By the wide definition of of "the people who stole your land" that you're using (meaning, no Hamas person checked who stole what land), almost everyone on earth is someone who stole someone's land. If not now, than in the previous generation. In my case as an Israeli, ~4 generations ago.

Thanks for saying that (not sarcasm, I mean it). Peace can only start when both sides admit they’ve done wrong too.

Would you say both sides did wrong with the Nazis vs Jews? This is an identical situation (possibly worse since the Zionists actively invaded Palestine to commit genocide).

It doesn't even need to involve a real wrongdoing, even a Holocaust survivor might admit that Jews being a socially separate group in Europe may have contributed to the Nazis scapegoating them (just stating a widely accepted fact, not blaming the victims). A 100% victim mindset is rarely helpful.

It is not identical, and it not even similar situation. You are sick in your head to compare the killing of 6 million people, unarmed, in gas chambers, with two nations that have a strong link to a place fighting over the land. The Jews never had anything against Germany - on the contrary, they wanted to integrate in it. Jews have real a historical connection to the land that even a Quran believer cannot deny, not to mention an archeologist.

Your failure to see things through the eyes of the other side is exactly the kind of thing that makes the Middle East a terrible place to live in.

The power differential between Zionists and Palestinians is much more extreme than Nazis and Jews. Zionists also have incredible control over my country (the US) than the Nazis ever did. In the 21st century Zionism is much worse than Nazism (which isn't even around any more in a significant way).

No, the Nazis had an army that took over all of Europe and some of Africa. The Jews had no weapons at all. Palestinians have weapons, they receive support in military training, and often coordinated their attacks with other armies from the countries surrounding Israel.

The "influence over the US" metric is ridiculous, the US was an enemy of the Nazis, of course they didn't have control over it. It's like saying the Nazis never had such a strong influence over Iran as the Palestinians do.

Prior to WWII the Jews were so powerful that the Rothschilds were able to get the UK to give them Palestine. The Balfour Agreement is very well documented. The Palestinians can't even return to their homes stolen from them during the Nakba.

I'm indigenous like the Palestinians (who also did not steal anyone's land). Zionism was created in the late 1800s with the mission to steal land and ethnically cleanse Palestine. These are concrete and well documented actions that justify Hamas's resistance.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and you're not seem to be interested in learning, but in case someone else reads our thread: Zionism wasn't created with the mission of stealing land and/or ethnically cleansing Palestine. That's a lie. It was created to find a home for the Jewish people. Until the early 1900s, a few places on Earth were considered. Unfortunately none was completely empty of other humans. Mandatory Palestine was chosen because of the strong link Jews have to it (and history, backed by countless archeological items). During the 1900s, Zionist have tried, and succeeded at times, to work together with the Palestinian community. The vast majority of the founding Zionist texts are very clear about the need to work together with, respect and share the land with the current local people living on it.

My family lost more than 20 people in the Holocaust, and I would never claim it justifies something like killing 400 Germans in a music festival. Claiming that anything justifies Hamas' attack is something only a sick person could do.

Correct, I'm uninterested in hearing Zionist propaganda.