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Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by andyjohnson0 on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:05AM (#4682595)
Its getting to the point where I am seriously considering closing my Amazon account. I just don't like the way it does business any more. Can anyone recommend a good online bookseller in the UK? Is Waterstones any good?

The Guardian is running a story [1] today about how Amazon forces publishers to cover the cost of 20% VAT (sales tax) on ebook sales, even though it only pays 3% to the Luxembourg government (where it is based for tax purposes). It also insists that if a publisher offers a better price to another retailer then it must offer the same price to Amazon.

They also pay no corporation tax in the UK, despite sales of more than £3.3bn/yr [2], through being based in Luxembourg.

I was going to jump ship to The Book Depository, but Amazon bought them last year. Its hard to understand why this was allowed by the competition regulator, and it doesn't give me much confidence that the UK government has much interest in limiting their control of multiple markets.

[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forc...

[2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-brit...

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by qw on Monday October 22, 2012 @09:05AM (#4682924)
They have certainly lost me as a potential Kindle user. I was considering buying myself a Kindle for Christmas, but that's not going to happen now. I thought Amazon could be trusted with my money, but it's clear that it's too risky.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone higher up sees her issues and activates her account. But I can't trust my money to a company where you could lose access to books worth thousands if you talk with the wrong person.

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by chris_wot on Monday October 22, 2012 @09:36AM (#4683043)
It's not like they don't have form. In 2009 they erased all the versions of 1984 from all Kindles, to massive uproar.

Back then, they said "We are changing our systems so that in the future we will not remove books from customers' devices in these circumstances". Looks like 3 years later they've decided to go back to what they were doing and promised not to do.

And THIS is why I won't buy a Kindle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18ama...

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by Monotoko on Monday October 22, 2012 @10:50AM (#4683372)
At least they gave these people their money back..
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by Antiks72 on Monday October 22, 2012 @10:47AM (#4683361)
Ironic that it was 1984.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by javajosh on Monday October 22, 2012 @12:41PM (#4684003)
Fahrenheit 451 would have been better.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by Antiks72 on Wednesday October 24, 2012 @01:39PM (#4694043)
Haven't read that one yet. Damn you for putting it on my list.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by gioele on Monday October 22, 2012 @10:34AM (#4683303)
> I was considering buying myself a Kindle for Christmas, but that's not going to happen now.

You can still treat yourself with one of the many currently sold ebook readers out there: http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/ebook-reader-comparison.html . There is a world out there of (electronic) books that is not controlled by Amazon.

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by bruceboughton on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:21AM (#4682633)
Every week there is a story in the UK press about how company A is not paying tax in the UK. This is not unique to Amazon.

Vodafone, Amazon, Starbucks, Google, Apple, ...

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by skywalk on Monday October 22, 2012 @10:31AM (#4683290)
Most are setup to use a double irish scheme, and usually throw in the dutch sandwich: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_sandwich
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by PeterisP on Monday October 22, 2012 @12:49PM (#4684050)
These schemes are relevant to corporate income tax, which can be manipulated and avoided. VAT applies to pretty much all revenue regardless of how you structure your company ownership structure.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by Tyrannosaurs on Monday October 22, 2012 @08:51AM (#4682885)
Reminds me of the nice Starbucks joke from last week:

I like my women like I like my coffee - paying tax on their income in the UK.

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by DanBC on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:53AM (#4682705)
There's a twist in asking customers to pay 20%, and taking that from the authors, and then (according to GP) not paying the 20% in England but paying just 3% in some other country.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by tommorris on Monday October 22, 2012 @12:21PM (#4683866)
VAT is not the same as corporation tax.

In the UK, Amazon is being accused of not paying the full amount of corporation tax they ought to be paying.

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by jonno on Monday October 22, 2012 @09:53AM (#4683093)
This sounds fraudulent.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by pja on Monday October 22, 2012 @11:09AM (#4683450)
You can be quite sure that the contract is not phrased in such a way that Amazon is required to pay 20% VAT on the ebooks in question to the UK government.

Is it sleazy as all getout? Yup, absolutely: but it's not illegal. Companies pull this kind of bait and switch all the time when they think they can get away with it. Remember when Microsoft bought the original Internet Explorer codebase in return for the company in question receiving a cut of the profits and then gave it away for free? How they must have laughed about that one back at MS HQ...

In reality, the publishers handed Amazon a near monopoly on ebook sales by their own short-sightedness and now Amazon is turning the thumbscrews to see how much they're actually prepared to cough up. The games with VAT in the contract are just part and parcel of that.

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by shinratdr on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @04:29AM (#4687094)
> How they must have laughed about that one back at MS HQ...

Until they lost the lawsuit...

http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/news2/microsoft-and-spyg...

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by DanBC on Monday October 22, 2012 @10:05AM (#4683157)
Vodaphone's shenanigans so they only paid £1.2bn of the estimated £6bn total tax bill also sounds well dodgy.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by rmc on Monday October 22, 2012 @08:31AM (#4682831)
It's funny that then people give out about small countries that have lower coporation tax (e.g. Ireland). If companies in "non-low-tax" countries like UK don't pay any tax, why give out to low-tax countries?
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by wyclif on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:48AM (#4682695)
Not that taxes are out of control in the UK or anything...
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by Tyrannosaurs on Monday October 22, 2012 @08:38AM (#4682845)
Elaborate please?
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by pragmatictester on Monday October 22, 2012 @03:17PM (#4684939)
http://www.betterworldbooks.com/ Used and new books. Free Shipping Worldwide.

"Better World Books is a self-sustaining, for-profit social venture whose mission is to capitalize on the value of the book to fund literacy initiatives locally, nationally and around the world. We partner with nearly 1400 libraries and over 1800 college campuses across the U.S. and Canada, collecting unwanted textbooks and library discards in support of non-profit literacy programs. We have raised millions of dollars for literacy, saved millions of books from landfills, created jobs for hundreds of people, and provided wonderful books to millions of readers worldwide."

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by phireal on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:14AM (#4682616)
Waterstones used to use Amazon to sell books (presumably they couldn't make any money any other way). Not sure if they still do.

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ is pretty good, particularly for difficult to find and second hand books. I've found more and more recently that play.com does almost as well as (and often better than) Amazon in terms of price, although I don't know much about their business tactics.

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by aapl on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:26AM (#4682647)
AbeBooks is actually owned by Amazon now.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by phireal on Monday October 22, 2012 @08:13AM (#4682778)
Seriously? Wow. Amazon really are dominating that particular market.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by greenyoda on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:05PM (#4686005)
From AbeBooks' web site:

AbeBooks Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. AbeBooks, an online bookselling pioneer, was acquired in December 2008 and remains a stand-alone operation with headquarters in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, and a European office in Dusseldorf, Germany.

http://www.abebooks.com/books/CompanyInformation

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by alsothings on Monday October 22, 2012 @11:09AM (#4683453)
I'm a fan of foyles[1] and their selection and prices are quite good.

[1]http://www.foyles.co.uk/

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by andyjohnson0 on Monday October 22, 2012 @12:56PM (#4684095)
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll do some price/terms comparisons. I don't mind paying a small premium to support an independent. Or I may try just ordering books at the Waterstones near where I work, and having them delivered there. The current owner of Waterstones seems to actually like and value books [1].

[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/james-daun...

Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by homeomorphic on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:17AM (#4682627)
I find The Book Depository good, but I don't really know if they're good or evil. They're very pleasant doing business with, though.
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by aapl on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:28AM (#4682653)
The Book Depository is owned by Amazon too :)
Re:Outlawed by Amazon DRM by homeomorphic on Monday October 22, 2012 @07:43AM (#4682682)
Ugh, I had no idea. Thanks for informing me!