In what manner do they extract less data

Unless you're running Graphene or a similar security minded distro the sandboxing isn't very good. Okay let's be honest it's fairly abysmal at preventing fingerprinting. It could almost be accused of not even bothering to try.

But one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43518866

Even with graphene I don't believe it mitigates much as far as apps collecting data. The idea for more privacy is you run open source apps instead that just don't collect data.

AFAIK Graphene is oriented towards strong device security with privacy as more of a side effect.

One thing with the sandboxed Play Services being that Google has fewer permissions on the device, so presumably they can collect less data.

Which I believe is GrapheneOS' argument when people praise microG: microG being open source does not fundamentally add privacy: apps using microG will phone to Google's servers (that's the whole point of microG). What microG solves is that it removes the Play Services that are root on your device, and it turns out that sandboxed Play Services do that as well.

> The idea for more privacy is you run open source apps instead that just don't collect data.

Yep exactly, I just wanted to add about the sandboxed Play Services, because it was not obvious to me at first :)

>Unless you're running Graphene or a similar security minded distro the sandboxing isn't very good

Grapheneos doesn't prevent the installed apps fingerprinting you linked either.

Color me surprised. But if you run the app using the sandboxing feature that it provides surely it will only be able to see other apps installed within that same sandbox?

What is "the sandboxing feature" you're talking about? The standard app sandbox built into android allows apps to discover each other for various purposes, and grapheneos doesn't do anything to attempt to plug this.

Apologies. I was thinking of Android user profiles which are available from mainline and (AFAIK) prevent the linked workaround from revealing any apps not installed in the same profile. So it's an example of an unfixed leak in Android but not (as I had previously implied) something that Graphene corrects.

Honestly the state of anti-fingerprinting (app, browser, and otherwise) is fairly abysmal but that's hardly limited to android or even mobile as a whole.

>Apologies. I was thinking of Android user profiles which are available from mainline and (AFAIK) prevent the linked workaround from revealing any apps not installed in the same profile.

But there's no evidence that stock android leaks apps installed across profiles? The link you provided doesn't discuss profiles at all, and stock android also has private space and work profile just like grapheneos.

... yes? That's what I said? Feature available in mainline, motivating leak unfixed, graphene doesn't correct.

The mobile operating system developed by the enormous ad tech company doesn't try to prevent fingerprinting?! :O

> Unless you're running Graphene or a similar security minded distro the sandboxing isn't very good. Okay let's be honest it's fairly abysmal at preventing fingerprinting.

Hmm... the sandboxing is a security feature, it's not there to prevent tracking (not sure what "fingerprinting" includes here). The sandboxing of Android is actually pretty good (a lot better than, say, desktop OSes).

There is pretty much nothing you can do against an app requesting e.g. your location data and sending it to their servers. Fundamentally, the whole goal of apps is that they can technically do that. Then you have to choose apps you trust, and it's easier to trust open source apps.

What GrapheneOS brings in terms of sandboxing is that the Play Services run sandboxed like normal apps. Whereas on Android, the Play Services run with system permissions.

You'd think this would be more known! I feel like general sentiment says the opposite is the case.. What can one point to in the future to show what you are saying here?

I agree with the thrust of the GP comment but:

> The IOS versions of social media apps extract way less data from the device than on android, and is thus more privacy friendly.

I seriously doubt this. I agree that this is the perception but anyone working in the mobile space on both platforms for the past ~2 years will know Google is a lot more hard nosed in reviewing apps for privacy concerns than Apple these days (I say this negatively, there is a middle ground and Apple is much closer to it - Google is just friction seemingly in an attempt to lose their bad reputation).

It would be nice if the app stores offered different levels of requirements. Let the market decide how much it cares about privacy (and security, and ...), reduce the friction for developers who want to do a particular thing, and give end users more confidence in the entire system.

Last time I tried Android I had to sign my rights away to everything the app wanted just to install it.

In contrast, on iOS I get prompted to allow or deny access to my information when the app tries calling Apple’s API to fetch that information.

For example, if an app wants access to my contacts to find other people using the app. On iOS I can simply say “no” when it prompts me to allow it to read my contacts. I lose out on that feature to find other people using the app, which I don’t care about, but I can still use the rest of the app. On Android it seemed like by installing the app, I had already agreed to give up my contacts… it was all or nothing. If I don’t like one privacy compromising feature, I couldn’t use the app at all.

Android may have improved this in the last few years, but I found it to be a dealbreaker for the entire platform.

> Last time I tried Android I had to sign my rights away to everything the app wanted just to install it.

Sounds like it was years ago... I remember that it was being introduced like... more than a decade ago? Of course maybe it took longer than iOS because of how Android works. iOS can just force everybody to use liquid glass with one update, Android has to think more about backward compatibility.

You still have the same things on android. If an android app requests eg exact location it can refuse to run and there’s nothing you can do. That sort of behaviour is prohibited on iOS and an app won’t be approved if it does that sort of thing. They have to allow declining location permission or at least approximate location

Not sure I understand. So you're saying that a bad app on Android can request all permissions and tell you that it will refuse to run unless you give them, and the same app would be declined on iOS?

I could agree with that, Apple is more picky. Now personally, if an app does that, I uninstall it.

But technically, the Android rules are that you shouldn't do that, and when you request a permission you need to explain to the user why you request it.

It was there for the launch of the App Store with iOS. They didn’t have to worry about backward compatibility, because they took the time to worry about user privacy and app developer overreach from the very start.

A difference is also that Apple has 100% control over the hardware and can enforce their updates much better than Android.

Android has to deal with tons of devices, and allow developers to update their tooling while supporting older devices. I actually find it quite impressive how they manage to do that. Must be difficult.

All the more reason to get the design right out of the gate, instead of throwing something out there and hoping to fix it later. Especially something so fundamental, like privacy.

>This is incorrect. The IOS versions of social media apps extract way less data from the device than on android, and is thus more privacy friendly.

Source?

Here’s one example:

> Meta devised an ingenious system (“localhost tracking”) that bypassed Android’s sandbox protections to identify you while browsing on your mobile phone — even if you used a VPN, the browser’s incognito mode, and refused or deleted cookies in every session.

— https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44235467

That's only one example, and as I explained in a sibling comment[1] doesn't even seem like something iOS designers were specifically defending against. In light of this, I think it's fair to say this example is poor and that another one is warranted. For instance, I'd consider the app tracking transparency changes to be something where iOS was doing better than Android on, but Android has since reached feature parity on that because you can delete your advertising id, which basically does the same thing.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46755250

Nope, they have exact same data collecyion policy. Just represented in a different way on app store. That's the illusion they create