Hardware tokens are not allowed in Europe to authorize certain operations such as bank transfers: you need a device that can show the operation you are about to authorize ("enter 123456 to confirm your payment of 99.99 € to Pornhub"). And that essentially means using a phone.

I'm in Europe, and some of my banks still operate with a token just showing numbers, while others use devices with QR code readers and a colour display which then can show transaction details.

They don't really like you using that and keep annoying you to stop doing that, but I don't think they'll fully get rid of that - those are filling some accessibility niches as well.

Maybe it’s country-specific, but most banks I know support a card reader or photoTAN device. You don’t need to use a phone.

I don't think card readers can display payment information, can they?

And I have no idea why, but no bank offers photoTAN devices in my country. They seem like an interesting concept, even though I imagine the underlying hardware isn't far from that of a phone, in the end.

German VR Banken: https://genostore.de/Banking/Kartenlesegeraete/

Sparkassen: https://www.sparkassen-shop.de/home/shop/tan-generatoren,375...

The card readers have an LCD display that shows the information.

How do they get this information in the first place, though? Do they have a QR code reader?

Yes, in that case it's often called Photo-TAN or QR-TAN. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaction_authentication_num...

Previously there were also so called "flicker TAN" approaches: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaktionsnummer#chipTAN_com...

Is this true?

The old, standard RSA number generator token key ring device is not permitted in Europe for authorizing bank actions ?

Precisely. You can use and old-style hardware token that only generates numbers to log in, but not to authorize an operation such as a money transfer.

The requirement is called "dynamic linking" (the 2FA code must be tied to the specific transaction) and the relevant regulation is PSD2.

There are "simple" hardware tokens that allow for that - you have to enter the amount and part of the destination IBAN and they generate a 2FA number based on that + probably the same number generator it uses for logins.

I’ve seen dedicated hardware devices which scan a QR-like code and show this in a little screen of their own. The bank provides them and does not require any app.

I only know of a single bank using this.

>I only know of a single bank using this.

If it's not Crédit Mutuel then you now know of a second bank using this method.

I am interested too, my fallback bank trapped me (or my courage to resist), the fallback of fallback would be crypto but i am not sure i want to depend on this too...

Meanwhile, the last hope is that people will use more cash (if the digital world is too hostile, oh wait it is!)

I am in europe and my bank issued me a hardware token I still need to use from time to time.

That probably means giving up the ability to mobile deposit checks - every bank I've ever had only allows that through their app.

Personally, I'm OK with that tradeoff. I live close to my bank, so going to deposit in person isn't a problem for me.

What's a mobile deposit and why do you need an app to check it?

It's the ability to take a picture of a check and deposit it into your account that way, vs having to take the check to an actual branch of a bank.

Here in the US, I still get checks frequently enough that it's nice to have.

I'll bet the confusion stems from the rest of the world having essentially forgotten what is a check/cheque almost a generation ago.

I only used them twice in my life, last one was in 2012 and I had to get a supervisor at the bank to find the procedure to get a checkbook at the time.

In the US, a lot of small employers still issue paper payroll checks.

The last time I (EU) touched a check was in 2006 - my elderly landlord used that to refund overpaid utilities. I had to google what to do with that thing - the bank I was with wasn't handling checks at all, so I had to go to a branch of a different bank. And even there they first had to look up what to do with that thing.

Maybe it's different for non-homeowners or people without kids. Just looking back at my records for about 2 years, I've written 36 paper checks in that time, not including the "online bill pay" provided by my bank which are often just physical checks they send in the mail: Kids extracurricular activities, school PTA donations, memberships in local clubs, pool service, home improvement jobs like fences and concrete, appliance repair, and, of course, property taxes.

Last check I wrote was for some car repairs at a local shop, where using a credit card would add a 3% premium. I agree, local services and contractors are some of the last people who you still can't pay electronically, but it's getting increasingly rare. Most will now at least take Venmo/Zelle.

I do own a home but find that almost everything can be paid online now. I write just a few paper checks per year. Even my taxes I pay on the state or IRS website (with ECH, so effectively a check but without the paper).

I’m a homeowner and have kids, and I’ve never written a check in my life. I can login to Bank of America and have them print and mail a check for free, but the recipient has to wait.

I only have to do this rarely, and it’s always because the recipient wants to charge a “convenience fee” for having me pay with ACH or debit card or credit card. (The seller is assuming people would rather pay an extra $3 to $5 to not have to write a check or mail anything).

What's hilarious is that at the end of the day your transaction is added to a text file and sent along with the image to the Federal Reserve Bank Clearinghouse via SFTP. It's then communicated back to the other bank in the exact same way.

Oh, cheques.

I don't think I've seen one of those since the early 90s. Do people still use them?

"Check" is the US spelling, and I still see them often enough here.

Hyperbolic take - There won't be PCs, as we know them, for too much longer (both by way of being made into walled garden phone-like "appliances" by software, and by the hardware becoming unavailable).

I hate that future so much, but I don't know what to do to avoid it. My sole choice to bank on pc and use it as a pc will not be considered by the product people making the choice to go smart phone app only.

I'm essentially along for the ride because the masses will gobble it up.

re: hating the future

I grew up in a world where personal computers weren't strange things (the 1980s). I remember reading Levy's "Hackers" in my teens and not comprehending how people could think personal computers were such a big deal. The talk about "technical priesthoods" and mainframes, the inaccessibility of computers to "normal people", etc, didn't mean anything to me.

Now that I'm living through the twilight of the personal computer I understand.

You do realize you have the power to organize with other like minded individuals and exert political power right? You don't have to just sit around and "accept this fate." We still live in a democracy, you're allowed to have a say if you want to.

The concern about individual ownership of general purpose computing is of concern to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of people. In the USA, at least, even more basic issues that should matter to a large portion of the population don't because they're distracted by "culture wars" and "wedge issues".

Money is speech, and speech builds political power. Industry lobbies have vastly more money than the minuscule number of people to whom this matters.

On top of that, the market doesn't want general purpose computers. The market wants TikTok terminals and selfie cams. The market wants "content consumption", "AI slop", and "influencers".

If there's no market for what I want it doesn't matter if it's legislated out of existence or not. Nobody will build it if nobody will buy it.

Then there's the apologists for big tech who cry "But they're not computers, they're phones!" when the fact is brought up that we're all carrying general purpose supercomputers bristling with sensors and radios in our pockets but we're not allowed to own them or use them for what we want. (Cue sob stories about clearing malware from oldsters' computers in 3... 2... 1...)

Technologists (who I'd argue should want general purpose computing in the hands of the masses) can't make any money re-architecting the OS and application metaphors and paradigms that give rise to the malware-laden cesspools of end users PCs so they just direct their efforts to working at big tech building the walled-garden prisons that we're all going to be forced into.

It's hard not to feel like I have to accept this fate.

yeah. Americans are one media campaign away from having to argue for their right to possess fully semiautomatic general purpose computers with high capacity peripherals. Europeans and the rest of the collective West won't even get such courtesy, their young global leaders don't need to justify their actions to the unwashed masses.

all they really need to do is to make the Internet inaccessible from any device except the castrated thin clients that our computers are doomed to be replaced with. and that can be done trivially.