"China" isn't "China". Like everywhere else, ther's a maze of conflictiong incentives. The CCP measures regional governments on their stats. Gaming there. Regional governments measure administrative areas, ditto. More gaming. No stats can be trusted in a society that does not prize allegiance to the truth above all else.

Let’s say it how it is, this is the cost of freedom. Yes, China can build more quickly and has advanced more technologically, but it came at the cost of freedom. The degree of freedom is not something I’m fit to argue.

Now, there are those they believe the difference in freedom is worth that technological advancement. I’m not so sure.

COVID was a great example of this. China was able to slow the virus spreading faster than the US since they were literally locking people into their homes. In the US, this didn’t happen because of the rights we have.

China's system created the virus, allowed the virus to spread rapidly . Then arrested people warning about it. Locked people in blocks causing more deaths, made up stats and censored the press.

Plus their vaccine didn't work.

I wouldn't call them more technology advanced. Good at controlling people and information but bad at outcomes and process.

Strange to me that the US has fallen behind is supposedly due to its commitment to freedom. The ownership class sold out the industrial base for profit, beginning with Reagan. They’re the ones who have driven policy - and continue to do so in the current turn to naked authoritarianism. The freedom the US supposedly stands for is the freedom of the capitalist class. Is it any wonder we haven’t seen investment in public infrastructure that prioritizes public good over private profits? That would have be financed by taxing the private interests that determine our policies. Instead we finance wars and a police state.

> No stats can be trusted in a society that does not prize allegiance to the truth above all else.

What society, government or political entity prizes allegiance to truth above all else?

Truly you win the prize of the dumbest anti-china comment.

I trust Finland's economic data far more than China's.

No offense to Finland but Finland is basically an irrelevant country when it comes to geopolitics.

How is that relevant to the accuracy of their economic data? Finalnd's long border with Russian and recent joining into NATO means they are actually relatively geopolitically important.

It’s easier for small countries to do certain things that’s much more difficult for large countries to do. And by your logic, North Korea is relevant too, and it is and Finland is too, but in very narrow areas; and not really relevant when talking about economics of big countries.

" North Korea is relevant too" It very much is.

Okay…but I’m not going to say North Korea’s economic data is fraudulent, therefore implications for the economic data for large countries. Also, read the thread before replying to random phrases you see.

Yeah, from memory Finland scores very highly in global surveys of honesty.

> What society, government or political entity prizes allegiance to truth above all else?

Exactly.

The problem is that people use all kinds of alternative methods to measure GDP. Stuff like light emissions. Import and export volumes and so on. And broadly speaking those are not that different from the offical stats. So just claiming its all lies doesnt really work.

> If they can build things faster, what need is there to manipulate the statistics?

A lot to unpack here. You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village, no eminent domain payments necessary.

> If the chinese don't have property rights, then how come they own so much property?

If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good.

> You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village

Better than exterminating the natives to build railroads? Using your logic we don't have property rights in the US either.

> no eminent domain payments necessary.

Doesn't explain nail houses though.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/asia/gallery/china-nail-house...

> If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good.

Yes. 1.4 billion people live in half-finished concrete shells.

Come up with something better. You guys are getting boring repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

China has the same property rights as America because the US built railroads over a hundred years ago and had wars with natives.

What property rights are you expecting America to grant non citizens who never build anything?

You lost the debate awhile back. I wonder when you will realize it.

“You lost the debate a while back”.

If you are downvoted for political stuff especially when it relates to non-western things, that’s a great indicator you didn’t lose any discussion.

Ghost cities have been shown as western made up cope.

—

China is not individualist in a selfish way like the west. Collectivism is a good concept.

Thank god their property rights are not barbaric like the west.

Where did you get the idea that they don't make eminent domain payments?

My great-grandmother’s home, those of her neighbors, and their church was bulldozed for the US75/I45 rebuild/connection in Dallas in the 1950s. They were given the choice of new public housing built nearby in an industrial area (around Fair Park where State Fair of Texas is held) or figuring it out on their own. Being Black and low-income meant whatever rights they “had” were hard to come by.

I guess my point is rights and freedoms are unequally held, regardless of a nation’s stated values and laws. What makes/made the US great is not that things happening in China couldn’t happen here. It’s that we (used to?) aspire to greater ideals about individual freedom even if it isn’t present for all. CCP and I think Chinese citizens are under no such illusion, and in some cases reject the individual for the collective. (I’m hedging a bit since my understanding is limited second-hand anecdotes from Chinese American friends).

LoL what the actual fuck are you going on about? China is extremely particular about market rate eminent domain payments. The only difference being it's often a take it or leave it offer, but they make prompt payments nonetheless.

That's why China ends up with cases like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FkePxUA6UE8

Yes owning appartments is propery. I know that people in the US have an absurd glorification of the single family home but things other the single family homes are a thing in most of the world.

“ No. There isn't.”

Yes. There is. Obviously both are happening simultaneously because the world is complicated.