Supporting Israel in preventing Iran from getting nuclear capabilities is destablizing, not the opposite.
A lot of this is just a consequence of repeated exposure to foreign propaganda. It's not reasonable policy.
Previous decade arms control understood this, and understood something very valuable needed to be offered to keep countries from pursuing them.
Current nuclear arms control is failing (Iran, North Korea) because the international community is pretending they aren't worth pursuing at almost any cost.
If a country wants to pursue a foreign policy antagonistic or counter to the US, they'd be insane not to develop nuclear weapons.
Tell me, did the "Muslim terrorists" nuked Hiroshima and Nakasaki? did the "Muslim terrorists" massacre the Vitenamese and Cambodians ? What about the current genocide occuring in Gaza ?
Dear god I can't even articulate how cunning is/was the western media when it comes to brainwash their people.
> effectively uninvadable
Yet Israel was invaded during the Yom Kippur War when it had nuclear weapons, the UK was invaded by Argentina during the Falklands War, Russia was invaded briefly by Ukraine (Kursk). And Israel arguably just demonstrated that developing a survivable nuclear deterrent probably isn't as easy as many thought. (Ukraine, to a lesser extent, also with Spiderweb.)
> Supporting Israel in preventing Iran from getting nuclear capabilities is destablizing, not the opposite.
On the contrary, it sends a strong "fuck around and find out" message to any country pursuing nuclear weapons. And if Israel is capable of this kind of decapitating strike against a country's nuclear program, imagine what the US (or China) could pull off.
> On the contrary, it sends a strong "fuck around and find out" message to any country pursuing nuclear weapons.
We have yet to see how effective these attacks were in preventing Iran from getting the bomb. Early reports seem to suggest, not that effective.
I, however, am more concerned with the fact that Israel—a nuclear armed state—gets to be the arbiter of nuclear non-proliferation. The hypocrisy of these actions should not escape anyone, and it sends the message that some states are allowed to keep the bomb in defiance to international treaties. If Iran has to suffer for wrongly pursuing the bomb, why doesn’t Israel have to suffer equally, for much worse crimes than Iran?
Validating these attacks on the grounds of nuclear non-proliferation is setting up a false dichotomy. There is an available third option here, which Israel seems hellbent on disrupting. We could negotiate with Iran, and have them dismantle their nuclear weapons program (or at least, not pursuing it further). This has worked in the past, and—and I’m just an observer here—given the fact that Israel is well past the point of international sanctions for their Gaza genocide, the west has another ace up their sleeve and could even promise to sanction Israel for their nuclear weapons program in return.
Given how gray this comment already is, I'm not afraid to go against what seems to be the HN-hivemind today: Good luck with that proposal, last week Rubio himself stated there's a no-tolerance policy for anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, and such behavior can be the single determining factor against one's ability to legally migrate here. This administration is blindly pro-Israel, much to its detriment - and likely its battle between dovish and hawkish foreign policy; because they're damned either way.
As soon as USSR made their nukes, there was peace.
As soon as DPRK made nukes, everyone stopped bothering them and threatening to invade
That's second amendment for nuclear weapons. Inside US people are generally nice to each other because you don't know who's carrying.
Imagine a world where the USA and Israel had no nukes.
There are much better methods to prevent Iran from getting nukes. Methods which have been shown to be effective. And in my opinion, the world really needs to denuclearize Israel (as well as any other nuclear armed nations).
And what if those methods don't work?
Obviously I would prefer all this to be resolved in a diplomatic way a decade ago, but in some cases military action will be the only way beyond a certain point.
Similar deals can be reached today. For example Europe can promise to sanction Israel for their nuclear program in return for international monitors.
Further, I predict that there is a negative correlation with international treaties, and bilateral agreements and arms buildup. That is, the more nations cooperate, the more they negotiate and agree on stuff, the fewer arms they pursue and keep.
I don‘t feel like doing the research to gather evidence for my hypothesis, but mine at least doesn’t fail the sniff test. Feel free to prove me wrong with data.
You know what correlates the most with peace and lack of arms races? Having a single superpower who everyone is afraid of.
Deterrence is the reason why bad actors have kept relatively quiet, not diplomacy.
Sure we can look at Israel, a nation which has a part of tons of international treaties and agreements (albeit fewer then most other nations) and yet is one of the most antagonistic militarized nations in history. So we know there are exception. North Korea might be an example of a country that passes the sniff test of my second hypothesis. Outside of the most international treaties and agreements and also extremely militarized.
But on the other hand, according to my first hypothesis, Israel does pass as an example that contributes to the passing of the sniff test. Israel is probably the country that has seen the most wars and conflicts since World War 2 (maybe USA and Russia/Soviet Union have seen more; I don‘t know), and in accordance to my hypothesis, it is also one of the most militarized nation in the world currently (including one of very few nuclear armed nations).
Plus we have the latest report from the UN that Iran has been breaching their nuclear agreements.
Iran most likely won't be able to redevelop a nuclear program if the current one is destroyed (and Israel could easily destroy it again when/if they restart)
Dropping the treaties and invading Iran does seem to correlate with weapons buildup.
And hope isn't much of a strategy.
Obviously there is a huge risk here that if Israel fails then Iran will without a doubt push for a bomb.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/6/13/iran-to-double-down...
How exactly will they be able to do so? They won't be able to protect the sites from further attacks, not to mention losing a significant chunk of the expertise in form of personal along with the materials required.
It's not some Lego set, rebuilding such a project is insanely complex and time consuming, chances of success are very low (assuming Russia, North Korea, etc, don't decide to just hand some over)
Plus, even if they did develop a new program by the time it's done anti missile tech will most likely reach a new phase.
Not only did they immediately flout the rules and enrich uranium past the levels they were allowed to, the also in defiance of the treaty built secret nuclear reactors that weren’t monitored, and pursued building and stockpiling all the parts necessary to build a nuclear warhead.
Throughout this entire conversation you’ve made many claims that aren’t true at all. You’ve shown extreme bigotry against Jews and Israel.
Most experts agree that the Iran nuclear deal was a success until USA withdrew in 2018.
Please point to these supposed experts, everything I saw from that time was that only those naive enough to believe a pack of lies claimed the nuclear deal would work, while everyone else was pointing out all the ways Iran was totally subverting it.
2023: 10.28 Billion USD (inflation adjusted)
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.CD?location...
Expert opinion:
* https://carnegieendowment.org/emissary/2025/04/iran-nuclear-...
* https://nationalinterest.org/blog/energy-world/us-iran-nucle...
Note that neither tout the success of 2015 directly (why would they, it failed after USA withdrew) but rather are proposing a new deal would build upon stuff that worked in 2015:
> In 2015, the JCPOA’s durability stemmed in part from expert-level dialogue between scientists, including US Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz and Ali Akbar Salehi, then-head of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran. Reestablishing that kind of technical cooperation is essential to crafting a framework that can both verify compliance and contain Iran’s nuclear ambitions.
Those “experts” don’t at all support your claims that the 2015 deal was or could be successful. We’re not currently discussing the deal that might be made, as details are changing too rapidly for anything they said last week to be relevant anymore (e.g. many of the scientists who were pursuing a second jewish genocide are now dead). We’re discussing whether the 2015 deal was viable immediately after it was signed… based on your own data and idea (treaty = declining military spending) it appears it wasn’t.
I purposefully tried to find the most up to date opinions on the matter while still before Israels attacks. But here is what experts were saying back in March 2018
> Iran is Implementing Nuclear-related JCPOA Commitments, Director General Amano Tells IAEA Board
https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/iran-is-implementing-nu...
> Collapse of Iran nuclear deal would be ‘great loss,’ says UN atomic agency chief
I guess that’s an opinion someone could have…
Regarding your sources, yes those are the naive experts I was talking about. The same ones who allowed Iran to build a secret facility right under their nose, the same one that finally admitted years too late that actually Iran is far out of compliance. They’re about as effective as UNIFIL.
Meanwhile you felt your personal opinion should be what decides the fate of half the world’s Jews.
I will engage one last time but I caution you to please reconsider your approach. If you continue to make such racist comments I will simply leave the conversation as I don’t like interacting with hateful people.
The article you shared is from a publication that ain’t known for fair and balanced coverage, but even there they admit that Iran pursuing nuclear power has pushed SA to do the same. Once again showing that it’s not about how many countries maintain nuclear capability but rather how stable their governments are. Belaying the fact that treaties are basically meaningless unless everyone else believes you will keep to them. And guess what, the majority of humanity believes Iran will not keep its word on anything. Even today they were shouting “Death To America, Death to Israel”. A people screaming for blood should be believed not coddled, especially when they openly act out those calls for mass murder. So far they’ve attacked multiple large apartment buildings and a school for mentally impaired children none of which were anywhere near any military targets.
>Even today they were shouting “Death To America, Death to Israel”.
What about the Israelis shouting death to Arabs?
> So far they’ve attacked multiple large apartment buildings and a school for mentally impaired children none of which were anywhere near any military targets
Israel has targeted hospitals and apartments also. Tit for tat. Also Iran has hit military targets which were placed among civilians (HaKirya). Why is Israel using human shields? Reprehensible.
> For #Israel to attack #Iran including its nuclear facilities (prohibited by international law) and for #Trump to ask Iran for “total surrender” and forgo a treaty right (uranium enrichment) in a clear act of national humiliation, on suspicion that it is developing nuclear weapons (possessed by both #Israel and #US), suspicion that does not constitute an “imminent threat” as confirmed by all western intelligence agencies and was dealt with through negotiations in #JCPOA agreement of 2015 which the US withdrew from in 2018
> To rely on force and not negotiations is a sure way to destroy the #NPT and the nuclear non proliferation regime (imperfect as it is) and sends a clear message to many countries that their “ultimate security” is to develop nuclear weapons !!!
https://x.com/ElBaradei/status/1935041599605539211
ElBaradei won the Nobel Price in 2005 for his work on nuclear non-proliferation. I‘m pretty sure he knows more about this than you or I.
You do your argument no favors linked to a twitter account that openly spreads blood libels and invents lies.
Iran choose to insert itself where it didn’t belong and had no reason to be. If Iran (like 1930s Germany) had just focused on torturing its own people instead, none of this would’ve happened and Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel and yes even palestine (without Iran’s interference would already be a state) would all be much nicer places right now. Instead it introduced regional instability with its ambitions of annihilating and subjugating Jews, to which you are lending your full throated support.
But my hypothesis is time relative, as countries participate in more treaties and agreements, the less they arm them selves. Note that USA has been a significantly worse participate in agreements and treaties as your average western nation, and is also the country which is increasing their arms spending at the greatest rate. Note Europe is also increasing their arms spending, which is why I provided the second hypotheses, that an increased war correlates with increased arms buildup. Europe has been seeing more wars lately, and they are in turn increasing their arms buildup.
Finally, why is South Africa on that list? South Africa has consistently been reducing their arms spending by around 5-10% every year, for the last 5 years at least. And historically (during apartheid) it was one of the most militarized countries on earth. It was also famously not part of hardly any agreements or treaties (as it was sanctioned for their apartheid polices). After apartheid ended South Africa started participating in almost all the treaties and agreements which a modern democracy is expected to (going even further than most western countries). And even famously dismantled their nuclear weapons program. South Africa should be a most prominent example in favor of my hypothesis.
SA is Saudi Arabia.
Regardless I've soundly disproven your theory that treaties lower weapon stockpiles, No one disagrees that war will cause people to increase the arms spending, that’s a given. But it’s also pretty clear that treaties do not necessarily lead to less arms spending. Especially when one of the parties to the treaty is a theocratic dictatorship who has called for the total annihilation and destruction of all western society. Even while Iran was technically agreeing to follow the treaty it was still funding hezb, hamas and propping up Syria, none of those things speak to a country that is interested in peaceful coexistence with it’s regional neighbors. Additionally, SA (Saudi Arabia) expressed strong interest in developing a nuclear program simply because of Iran’s. So allowing Iran to have any sort of nuclear program directly contributes to more nuclear proliferation.
But you haven’t disproven anything, my hypothesis is about trends over time and probabilities, not absolute. What you have done is pointed to a few possible outliers. The existence of outliers does not disprove a trend. The plural of anecdote is not data.
To disprove my hypotheses you’d need to gather the data and show me there is no such correlation.
I know the burden of proof is on me, and you have no obligation believe me without the data to show it, which is why I only claimed that the hypotheses passes the sniff test. And from what I have been reading is that experts on the matter tend to agree with me, that Iran is actually more likely to pursue the bomb now that it has been attacked, and it was less likely when the Iran nuclear deal was in effect.
Seeing as you refuse to back up any of your claims with data, we’re not talking real science here but baseless accusations supported by biased bigotry vs anecdotal evidence, I don’t feel the need to disprove anything to a scientific degree, rather, the opposite is true, to prove the hypothesis you need to gather the data and show that it supports you. Until then your opinion is nothing more than that.
It’s truly the height of narcissism to make a completely unsupported claim with only your own feelings as the basis for your evidence and hold the fate of one of worlds old people/religions to it.
mupuff1234 2 days ago
> And then you just end up with an Iran with more powerful conventional weapons, so not exactly a major win either.
This is a testable hypothesis. I have shown the specific claim that Iran does in fact not end up with more powerful weapons as a result of a nuclear deal. But what is more interesting is if that pattern is more general, and my prediction is that it is. And furthermore, my additional prediction is that Iran will now have more weapons as a result of it being dragged into a war with Israel. Countries at war tend to own more weapons.
I was also very clear from the beginning that I was not going to look for that data my self, and my only goal was to show that my hypotheses would pass the sniff test. I‘m not an expert in international relations. Surely any data that I would gather would be flawed, and any analysis I did would be biased.
Feel free to prove me wrong with actual data, or cite an expert which already has.
No you haven’t at all.
The problem with your opinion is it’s false on its face with regards to Iran: part of the treaty is that Iran is allowed to build more powerful conventional weapons… and guess what: that’s exactly what they did, in addition to also pursuing nuclear arms. They just only had to hide the nuke development, while the more powerful conventional weapons they were able to develop out in the open. 15 years ago they didn’t have weapons capable of reaching France… now they do. All your other equivocation and high minded ideas about what a rogue colonial, genocidal theocracy might do if you offer enough appeasement are moot. Reality shows that’s not what happened.
Not to mention the other rogue destabilizing things Iran did in the ensuing years, such as supporting Syria in the genocidial war against their own people as well as supporting the Houthis in terrorizing Yemen into a civil war and using that base to also terrorize SA. The treaty completely failed long before trump pulled out. Any claim to the opposite is ignoring all of reality.
I’d also note: I’ve gone back through your comment history… it’s not pretty. You’re willing to give anyone who wants to kill zionists (aka semites aka Jews) as wide a latitude as possible and you make up justification after justification for why it’s ok and really they don’t intend that and really they mean something else, while specifically for one small seaside nation you think has no right to exist, and no matter what they do it’s not ok, and there’s no possible justification for literally anything they do. You also have a very problematic and honestly bigoted view of Jews, where you try to take control of their religion and dictate their core beliefs. It’s really a shame because I never thought of the Icelandic people as so prejudiced.
Hopefully this sort of behavior isn’t tolerated much longer here.
The US and Russia were committed to working towards that world, at least back in the 80s.
Iran has been at war with Israel for the last 10 years, the fact that Israel held back until now, is 100% bec of the methods that proved totally ineffective.
The NPT is de-facto a universal treaty, any UN member who is not a member is in defiance even though de-jure they are not. Simply put, what I am saying is, Israel—along with North Korea, India, and Pakistan—are going against the expectation of the rest of the world when it comes to nuclear non-proliferation. They are in defiance with the nuclear norms of the international community.
Note that people also said the USA was in defiance to climate change treaties when they failed to ratify Kyoto, and when they withdrew from Paris.
Iran didn't have to join the NPT, but by voluntarily joining and then essentially failing IAEA inspections (suggesting that they're probably enriching uranium beyond the levels required for any civilian purpose), they've helped Israel make its case for self-defense.
History will view this operation as a great success - and exactly what the west should be doing, a precision operation to take out advanced military capabilities of authoritarian regimes.
Imagine a world where Russia & North Korea had no nukes.
Yes, Israel has done lots of terrible things (but so have it's neighbors), but this one is pretty awesome.