News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by s_henry_paulson on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:08AM (#4416916)
Terrible article. Calling histograms awful, based on nothing more than an opinion.

Then trying to conclude that some convoluted scatter plot system makes more sense is laughable.

Not to mention, this system is still just a star rating system. This would be no different than having two histograms side by side.. assuming, of course, that you'd even want to rate different aspects of the same thing.

I can't even imagine scatter plots on amazon, or trying to convince the general public that "it makes more sense"

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by todd3834 on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:15AM (#4417161)
Terrible comment. I found the article interesting. As someone who has played around with many different types of rating systems, I applaud their effort at trying something different. Sounds like you area little too emotionally invested in histograms. I'm not even going to ask why.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by ajscherer on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @10:22AM (#4417460)
I'll meet you halfway. It's a terrible comment about a terrible article. I agree that it's laudable to try to invent an improved version of online ratings, but this article wasn't effective in convicing me that they've succeeded.

Their argument that historgrams are just.awful. (I didn't care for the extra periods) seems to have two components: 1. asserting that historgrams are bad 2. showing us 3 histograms and saying they tell you the same thing about all 3 movies, when in fact there is a very clear and important difference between the histograms.

Its completely obvious from inspection ("people are really good at seeing patterns") that Starship Troopers has a much lower percentage of 5 star ratings than the other two, and a much higher fraction of 0 star ratings. It also appears to me that the Fifth Element has a higher fraction of 4 or 5 star ratings, and is probably the most apprciated of the 3 films, although Blade Runner is fairly close.

If you are going to cherry a set of 3 specific films to make your point, you should be sure to at least pick 3 films that support your point instead of refuting it.

We then learn about their hypothesis that while 5-star rating system sucks, a system that relies on two correlated 5-star ratings is great. They demonstrate this by using the two question system to draw the exact same conclusion I drew from the histograms of the 1 question ratings.

I would've liked some sort of objective attempt to compare the two rating systems. Perhaps it would be possible to measure how frequently the two question system leads people to make a better choice than the one question system, or at least some sort of statistical wonkery that would purport to show me that the two question system in practice draws more distinctions than the one question system. Unfortunatley we only get this one rather uninspired example ("watch this if you’re in the mood for something really good").

They also didn't address why "would you re-watch this film" is a better choice than any other second question. There are attempts to justify it being a good question, but no real evidence that other questions were tried and didn't perform.

Finally, the thing that really irked me was that this proposed system doesn't seem to do anything to address most of the actual problems with the regular 5 star system, namely that people who feel really strongly about something are more likely to rate so that most ratings tend towards the extremes, and that without context we have no idea why someone rated something a 5 instead of a 1. Those problems now exist along two dimensions instead of one.

I see this less as an article and more as an advertisement hitching a ride on an xkcd comic.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by sp332 on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:23AM (#4416979)
It's different from having 2 histograms because it lets you distinguish people who thought it was a good movie but not re-watchable, from people who thought it was a good movie and fairly re-watchable, from people who thought it was an OK movie and not re-watchable. With a bunch of histograms you can't correlate the variables.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by guard-of-terra on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:25AM (#4416990)
Why would I care about rewatchability? The torrents are full with thousands of lives on video I'll never watch, what's the point of rewatching anything but the dearest, youth-defining films?
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by ErrantX on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:48AM (#4417078)
> Why would I care about rewatchability?

Speaking as a film buff; this is actually quite a good guide to the sort of movie it is (when combined with quality). If lots of people mark it good quality, but wouldn't watch it again, that implies that you have to be in the right mood for it.

If people mark rewatchability high, even if the quality rating varies, you know it is much more easy going film.

And so on. Combining data points is good :)

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by sp332 on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:37AM (#4417042)
The comment I was replying to said This would be no different than having two histograms side by side. And I pointed out that it is not.

Oh well I'll answer your question anyway. Because 90% of everything is crap (probably more than that on P2P sites). Re-watching a movie can be like walking in the same park more than once, looking at pleasant things with a sense of recognition. You could put a movie in to suit your mood. Sometimes you'd rather watch a good "original" movie again than watch yet another crappy remake or rip-off.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by guard-of-terra on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:38AM (#4417053)
If I have already seen this movie why would I need ratings of any kind?
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by sp332 on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:42AM (#4417065)
What use case are you referring to? I don't know anyone who uses ratings sites after seeing a movie.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by guard-of-terra on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:12AM (#4417153)
My point exactly. And why would you care about rewatchability if you didn't see the movie once?
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by mhellmic on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:22AM (#4417184)
rewatchability should indicate a light-weight movie. If you want that, you look at rewatchability, if you want something more complex, you use quality. I think this is the underlying assumption.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by sp332 on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:23AM (#4417189)
I don't think this is right. People watch movies like Blade Runner and Citizen Kane repeatedly.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by sp332 on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:18AM (#4417171)
Possibly to know whether you should rent it or buy it.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by batista on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @10:44AM (#4417562)
Because the rewatchability rating doesn't just tell you how rewatchable a movie is, but also how good and "timeless" it is, i.e mainly how deeply it resonates with people.

This is not about picking a movie to watch again after you have already seen it once: this is about picking a movie you haven't seen but that is so good that other people like to watch it again and again.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by swah on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @01:31PM (#4418486)
You're telling me its stupid to choose the 100% chance of some known amount of fun rewatching an old series than to bet compared to watching that latest Jennifer Aniston flick?
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by SLuijk on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:41AM (#4417256)
You are not trying to gauge if you would want to re-watch the film. If other would re-watch the film, maybe, just maybe, you would enjoy watching it the first time.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by batista on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @10:40AM (#4417542)
Because "rewatchability" is not just useful to judge how much people like to watch a movie again -- it's also useful to judge how much people like the movie, find it deep, and connect with it (over pure mindless fun).

So rewatchability roughly translates to "emotional connection + quality".

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by vitalique on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @12:03PM (#4418018)
Now compare your point of view with the one expressed by mhellmic[1] in this very discussion. 'Rewatchability' sounded to me as something even more vague than 'quality' while reading the article. Also, my pattern for rewatching films differs greatly from both your description for rewatchability and mhellmic's, and from my own pattern for rereading books. I don't see how it can be applied to rating systems with just one additional parameter (the quality thing).

[1]http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4417184

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by slantyyz on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @12:07PM (#4418050)
For adults, this might be true, but for kids, i'm not so sure.

If you've got kids, you know they'll just watch the same flashy animated movies over and over again, even if their opinion of the content is "meh".

What would probably happen is that family films, especially animated ones, would have skewed results.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by batista on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @03:30PM (#4419126)
Kids of that age (that watch the same "flash animated movies" over and over again) seldom buy/rent movies themselves.

Plus, they do not normally use online rating systems...

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by slantyyz on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @03:38PM (#4419163)
Good point, but I do see adult-entered reviews at places like Amazon where they write "My kid watches this all the time, bla bla".
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by vhf on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:17AM (#4416952)
This would be no different than having two histograms side by side..

Yes it would, and the article shows why and how. Scatter plots are easy to read (for comp./math. educated people). Two histograms side by side are easy to read (and find correlations) for nobody.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by qxcv on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:34AM (#4417026)
The point is that scatter plots are harder to read than histograms. It's not two histograms vs. one scatter plot, it's replacing the current single histogram system with a single scatter plot.

Also, side-by-side histograms aren't the only way to display two parameters in a single histogram. What about stacked histograms? They scale up to an arbitrary number of parameters and everybody who can read a histogram can read a stacked histogram. Scatter plots seem like thermonuclear overkill for a problem which most movie sites seem to consider to be "solved".

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by ssmoot on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:13AM (#4417155)
I think it's a problem of brevity. You write something, you refine, you cut out the pet witty comment. You cut your message to the bone. Now you're done.

Read the text of the article describing each movie. The correlations are absolutely meaningless. He doesn't hit on them at all. In fact, with comments like "almost nobody" he's specifically looking at averages. Then coming to a conclusion effectively based on the average of Score 1 and the average of Score 2 to determine what type of movie it is.

So on this Quality/Rewatchability grading system:

Starship Troopers: 3:4 The Fifth Element: 4:4 Blade Runner: 4.5:3.8

Drop that in place of the graphs and the conclusions would sound as seemingly valid.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by abrookewood on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:24AM (#4416985)
I'm with Henry ... the scatterplot is fundamentally no different to two histograms side-by-side (though it is marginally easier to read).
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by maxerickson on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:53AM (#4417321)
A scatter plot definitely shows more information than a pair of histograms. Who knows if that additional information will be useful.

It would be nice if the article actually compared different visualizations of the same data, rather than showing histograms of 2 separate data sets and scatter plots of a 3rd data set.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by dbecker on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:48AM (#4417297)
Though a scatterplot conveys less information (e.g. the correlations between the two axes), I think it takes longer to process. It also takes more screen real estate than a pair of histograms.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by mistercow on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @01:48PM (#4418574)
>Though a scatterplot conveys less information

A scatterplot conveys objectively more information.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by droithomme on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:48PM (#4420505)
> the scatterplot is fundamentally no different

Actually it is fundamentally different as the histograms show aggregate data and scatterplots show individual data points.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by droithomme on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:43PM (#4420496)
It's true it's harder to find correlations, but this particular correlation is not likely to be meaningful.

As far as reading the distribution, two separate histograms are definitely more readable and understandable in order to understand the distribution. Adding the complexity of a scatter plot because it also shows a correlation that people are not actually interested in makes things less understandable.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by brown9-2 on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @10:27AM (#4417477)
It seems to me like "rewatchability" isn't really a useful metric when I am looking for a new-to-me movie to watch.

And when I am looking at user rankings for a movie, almost by definition I am only concerned with rankings for movies I haven't yet seen, since I already have an internal self-ranking for a movie I've seen already.

Histograms are extremely useful for knowing the spread of rankings, which the scatter plot also illuminates.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by DanBC on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:26AM (#4416996)
Possibly correct but a bit grumpily put.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by geelen on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:11AM (#4416931)
My point was you can't create a scatter plot from a single dimension of data, and that histograms are awful because they don't allow you to see patterns. But of course you're right, it is just my opinion.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by sixbrx on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:50AM (#4417304)
But histograms do allow you to easily see one of the most important patterns to me, at least for technical books, which is that the book is excellent but too "hard" for some who aren't willing to put in the effort. Those books tend to have a lot of 5 star and 1 star ratings, with few in between. Check out the SICP reviews on Amazon for example. When augmented with a set of comments, it's usually easy to predict which of the two groups I'd be in.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by droithomme on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:52PM (#4420514)
I find histograms very useful on amazon. Particularly the bimodal ones, which typically indicate controversial material.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by maxerickson on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @10:18AM (#4417441)
You should consider throwing up some histogram pairs of the data shown on the scatter plots.

It looks like they would still give a good picture of the data, as the trends are mostly linear.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by waterlesscloud on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:17AM (#4416955)
There's a pretty clear correlation between the histograms and the scatterplots, too, if you look.

If you gave someone those 3 histograms and those 3 scatterplots, I bet they could match them up correctly.

Aside- The scatterplots are an awful user interface because of the cognitive effort to interpret them, but perhaps there's a way to present the same information in a usable way.

Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by vhf on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @08:46AM (#4417072)
Please show me any diagram that does not require cognitive effort to interpret.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by tsahyt on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @11:15AM (#4417752)
It's not a terrible article at all. It's a suboptimal solution but the article is pointing out what's wrong with 5-star rating systems. It's labelled as a "response", not as a solution to all our earthly rating problems.
Re:Why Ratings Systems Don't Work by zimbatm on Wednesday August 22, 2012 @09:40AM (#4417252)
I agree, the good idea was to add more than one dimension to the rating. I suspect that it would be even more interesting if we had a couple more ratings to separate that one number into more precise groups.